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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 63
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 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: agree |
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Thank you for posting that! Very informative. I believe that if there is no zoning you should be able to do whatever you wish on your land.... unless it compromises public safety or infringes on the rights of others. The state should have been able to stop it for safety reasons but decided not to. I think you should be able to do anything you want as long as you aren't deprieving someone else of their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... but in this case I think they are and in the future infringing even more so on their neighbors rights.
The problem will be, as this company has already shown in other places, that they shouldn't have opened a quarry here because of the geographical make up of the area BUT when anyone complains they will use this very excuse to deny culpibility. "We didn't cause the sinkholes, it is natural in an area that has a lot of limestone". Even so, the actions of the quarry, as listed in my first post, caused the formation of sinkholes to occur more often and at a quicker rate and where sinkholes may never have formed.
Yes to some extent, the residents of St Thomas may have been able to avoid this in some way. But as far as the zoning, it may not have stopped the quarry AND when a couple of people developing the zoning pushed things way too far, they sealed the fate of zoning. In politics you can't alienate everyone and have total change over night, it usually takes years of small advancements to reach a goal. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2413
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: agree |
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| walrus1 wrote: | Thank you for posting that! Very informative. I believe that if there is no zoning you should be able to do whatever you wish on your land.... unless it compromises public safety or infringes on the rights of others. The state should have been able to stop it for safety reasons but decided not to. I think you should be able to do anything you want as long as you aren't deprieving someone else of their right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... but in this case I think they are and in the future infringing even more so on their neighbors rights.
The problem will be, as this company has already shown in other places, that they shouldn't have opened a quarry here because of the geographical make up of the area BUT when anyone complains they will use this very excuse to deny culpibility. "We didn't cause the sinkholes, it is natural in an area that has a lot of limestone". Even so, the actions of the quarry, as listed in my first post, caused the formation of sinkholes to occur more often and at a quicker rate and where sinkholes may never have formed.
Yes to some extent, the residents of St Thomas may have been able to avoid this in some way. But as far as the zoning, it may not have stopped the quarry AND when a couple of people developing the zoning pushed things way too far, they sealed the fate of zoning. In politics you can't alienate everyone and have total change over night, it usually takes years of small advancements to reach a goal. |
Actually, walrus, I think this pretty much sums it up perfectly and in the most logical and reasonable tone I've heard yet. I couldn't agree more.
OK, so putting all of those emotional instincts St. Thomas residents conjure up when discussing this--ie, petty and unproductive accusations, blaming the quarry on evil corporations, "money grubbing" politicians (somehow, someone always finds a way to blame a democrat too) and/or inept councilmen--what about the state? I mean, when is "the state" stopping a corporation in the best interest of local residents and when is it over-governing or pushing the limits of government? This is an important question, because corporations are important to the state as much as residents' concerns are. It's hard to argue legitimate health effects for a quarry here and not there; same goes for hog farms, landfills and power plants.
The fact is, the corporation bought the 400+ acres of land with the intention of building a quarry there; so when should the state have stepped in? In my opinion, once the land is sold, then it's a done deal. But, without zoning, is it possible that the corporation was allowed to buy the land without making its intentions known before the purchase, knowing full well that once the land was theirs, they could do as they pleased.
And finally, when it comes to money and big business, and lets face it that quarry is bringing in a pretty steady stream of revenue (and they mentioned plans for a possible concrete plant, etc, on site) a cost/benefit analysis may say that the possibility of sinkholes isn't legitimate enough of a concern to not justify the revenue.
The initial concern seemed to be air quality, but that kind of died because there are quarries all over the country that don't pose any significant risk. Noise and view are both typical, NIMBY concerns. So what about sink holes now? Doesn't matter; the quarry is there and it's not going away. I think that it's time for St. Thomas residents to move on, BUT, it is imperative that they develop zoning laws. And I'm sorry, but if that means not having junk cars on your lawn or bringing you tractor equipment inside at night, then so be it. Otherwise... I hate to say it, but... not my problem. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2859
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, Coppy and his annoying thirst for knowledge!
I really hate appearing to side with the quarry. They (like the ethanol plant tried to do) took advantage of the small town, country mentality. Even though that sounds derogatory, it really isn't meant as such--just a different way of thinking that, in this situation, has doomed this particular small town.
Umm, yeah, so anyway. Quarries are bad. I can't fault NIMBYs because I'd be one too. The government is supposed to protect the minority and I like it that way (i no wanna be a puritan!!)
BUT an elected official should be able to vote on things he feels strongly about, particularly if that is the very reason he/she was elected. (wait, i reminded myself of the congressional Xmas validation vote... crap! Coppy made my head hurt!)
Oh and "yay!" for the town that banned big box stores. Yeah, Wal-Mart is suing (I hate you wal-mart. No, Really.) but the town banned them before they showed up, so maybe they have a chance. >>Note the action prior to the arrival of the big, bad corporation.
As for the state stepping in...you know, I'm not really sure about that. 
I want our government to stand up for the little guys, but using politicos as white-out when we wish we had done something different?
Eh, ya'll are handling this discussion just fine...
ya'll know how I like to comment.
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: true |
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I would have to agree that they aren't going anywhere, but I also know they won't take responsibility for any of the damage they cause and will fight the fact that their actions have caused any sinkholes when common sense tells you it has. It is just impossible to gauge how much the sinkholes are of a natural origin and how much is Quarry related and how much is a combination. There are small towns in PA with this same problem, where they have been virtually ruined by sinkholes and the quarry has been fighting for years, denying any responsibility. I don't have anything against the quarry. Just think the location was stupid and people should be held accountable, of course that would mean they would have to just about buy the village of St Thomas.
If you open a quarry in a limestone/sinkhole area and sinkholes develop at a before not seen pace, then it is your fault. You shouldn't be allowed to turn around and say... "It isn't our fault, it is the limestone and this area has sinkholes" actually, it gives them a ready made excuse. If they did it somewhere else where sinkholes are rare they couldn't deny responsibility. But it doesn't seem like they should have it both ways, to build in the wrong location and yet to use that fact as a reason to deny your actions are cauing problems. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2859
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose the only way to try and establish liabilty at this point would be with a lawsuit. And being a corporation they should have some decent lawyers on retainer AND if their lawyers are worth their salt they'd probably try to settle out of court with confidentiality clauses. If it were to be taken into court, I'd imagine even if the decision was against them they'd challenge it for years...
You could at least give them (him) a hell of a headache!
Maybe the donation of the Tollhouse was meant to inspire goodwill and win political favor in order to look the other way on those pesky holes.
Maybe I'm just too damn jaded for my own good.
Fish around for some noisy organizations that will help back you up with P.R. and supporting research. Greasing squeaky wheels is what politics is all about. So get squeaky (squeakier) Darn it!
And for Gawd's sake, get some educated neighbors so this crap doesn't keep happening!
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Dave
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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There is a new alphabet group forming to fight any adult bookstore.
Saint Thomas Residents Against Porn Or Nudity. |
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A Talking Horse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Cove Gap
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave wrote: | There is a new alphabet group forming to fight any adult bookstore.
Saint Thomas Residents Against Porn Or Nudity. |
HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Do everything that's in you, you feel to be your part... |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2413
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crap that's funny  |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2859
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
I demand euphoria! |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2859
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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The Saint Thomas Residents Against Porn Or Nudity should have their own jingle to make them stand out. They should sing it to "The Clapper" commercial's tune.
I know it's been stuck in my head since reading about them.
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Don't mess with the Brake feifdom. you will regret it when you unexpectedly find yourself drinking an old milwaukee and playing the banjo in front of EC Barnes for nickels and dimes. |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:10 pm Post subject: thanks |
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"playing the banjo in front of EC Barnes for nickels and dimes."
Finally a real job created in Franklin county! its gotta pay better and have more benefits then those warehouse and fast food places.... |
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