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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Liquor board cracks down on Chambersburg clubs |
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| Vicky Taylor; PO Staff Writer wrote: | CHAMBERSBURG -- The liquor licenses of two local veterans clubs and one fraternal organization have been suspended for violations of Pennsylvania's small games of chance law. More clubs face suspensions from the state later this month and next month.
Chambersburg's Charles Nitterhouse Post 1499 Veterans of Foreign Wars on South Fourth Street, Loyal Order of Moose Lodge 842 and Burt J. Asper Post 46 American Legion are now without a liquor license, the punishment for violating state gaming laws.
All three clubs violated the small games of chance rules that allow only $5,000 per week paid out as winnings for those games and were found in violation of that rule for at least one week at some time.
"It's such a vague law," American Legion Manager Rob Sowers said. "Unless you really know the law or read it, it is hard to explain the complicated paperwork involved."
The clubs broke the rules by not counting winning tickets traded for more tickets as a payout. According to the state, paying out in tickets should be counted like paying out in cash.
The punishment is the suspension of the liquor license for the time specified. Because the clubs affected can't sell liquor, representatives said their kitchens that serve inexpensive meals to members are closed and the selling of games of chance have also been halted until the clubs can sell liquor again.
Managers say they are being targeted for political reasons. While individual clubs may have had suspensions
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before, the sweep of three clubs and more suspensions coming have club managers alleging their operations are targeted to begin the process that ultimately shuts down the gaming operations there. They say the political angle is that proponents of the state's new casinos want people who enjoy gaming to go the state's casinos, not to local clubs.
"That's not so," John Mathias, supervisor of the Liquor Control Board's enforcement arm in the Harrisburg District, including Franklin County, says. "Our investigations are 90 percent complaint-driven and we are simply responding to those complaints."
Don Hershey, club manager at Chambersburg's VFW Post, said he and other club managers as well as many club members believe most of those complaints are coming from people with interests in Pennsylvania's casino industry.
"We are a club town and that's why we're being targeted," Hershey said. "It's something that's very wrong."
The VFW is currently under a five-day suspension that began Monday and ends Saturday. The club is facing another citation issued in September but not yet settled.
"They (LCB enforcement agents) are talking about revoking (liquor) licenses (again)," Hershey said.
He and Sowers feel the complaints are what they call "a concerted effort" by casino interests to shut down the small games of chance at veterans and fraternal organizations.
"We have had no more complaints than usual," Mathias countered. "I've been here a long time and it's business as usual for us."
Mathias also denies that the state's gaming commission has anything to do with the crackdown on local clubs.
"We've received no special complaints or instructions from the gaming control board," he said. "The complaints are anonymous and I don't know who they are coming from, but I don't believe they are from someone trying to further a political agenda."
Both Hershey and Sowers say proceeds from gaming money go to projects that benefit the community, local veterans and their families.
"These clubs (VFW, Legion, Landis McCleaf Detachment Marine Corps League) were built on the backs of our veterans and they are important to our local community," Hershey said.
Mathias says that under the small games of chance law, that is the only thing the club's gaming proceeds can be used for. He says in most cases his investigators find those proceeds are used for other things, including operational expenses.
"I'm not saying that is what is happening in Chambersburg, but few clubs in our nine-county district are able to show me that 100 percent of their proceeds go to community interest projects," he said. "I commend clubs who use their proceeds totally for that purpose."
Mathias said investigations into the operations of the three clubs that are now in suspension -- the Legion, VFW and Moose -- began last year, as did investigations into clubs facing suspensions later this month and next month.
The Legion is under a 40-day suspension of its liquor license that began Monday. There is another citation against the Legion Oct. 4 that has not been adjudicated. The Moose Club has a 15-day suspension that began Monday and has also had another citation issued Oct. 18 that has not gone to court.
The Marine Corps League faces a 10-day citation from Jan. 28 to Feb. 7. The liquor license of Hume McNeal Byers Post 224 AMVETS will be suspended for 15 days beginning Feb. 4.
The BPOElks Lodge 600 in Chambersburg was also issued a citation Nov. 1 that has not yet gone before an administrative law judge. That citation could result in a suspension of its liquor license.
Whatever the cause for the complaints and investigations, local club managers say the situation is serious and has broad implications for the local community.
Many of the clubs put a lot of money into local causes, according to Hershey and Sowers.
The Legion has purchased two police dogs for the Chambersburg Police Department over the years and bought things such as police radios for the department. The Marine Corps League recently bought a new police dog for the department.
The clubs also put gaming money into local charities, provide for veterans and their families, help send packages to soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, help children at Scotland School for Veterans' Children, support local Little League teams and other causes.
Sowers says people who go to the local clubs are "everyday working people who go to the clubs after work" for an inexpensive meal and to relax.
"We aren't common criminals," he said. "We are people who try to keep our community moving."
The law that set the $5,000 weekly payout limit is more than 20 years old, and both Sowers and Hershey say it is a law that has been basically ignored for many years and needs to be changed.
Legislation to change the limits and other provisions of the law have been introduced in the state Legislature several times over the last few years, but so far has failed to pass both houses.
Sowers and Hershey said veterans' voices are not being heard by the Legislature, but they feel veterans organizations need to lobby for a change in the law to both clarify how the payout limit is determined and raise that limit.
"The situation is dire," Hershey said. "We don't know if we have enough time (to get the law changed) before we either go broke or have our licenses revoked." |
The Topix discussion is just exploding so I figured I'd post here to see what us regulars have to say. |
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Curious
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, the law's the law and should be followed by the local clubs. I doubt the small amount of gambling that goes on in these local clubs has any kind of impact on the new casinos. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Curious wrote: | | Well, the law's the law. |
I've always hated this; there's never any room for gray areas. Not specifically commenting on this story or gambling in general; just that some laws are antiquated or useless and the beaurocratic system is sometimes to broken to do anything about it. I'm sure you've seen those websites of "crazy laws" that just aren't enforceable, but exist nonetheless.
"The law's the law." But seriously, whatever happened to "no harm, no foul?"
| Quote: |
Pennsylvania Laws
It is contrary to Pennsylvania law to discharge a gun, cannon, revolver or other explosive weapon at a wedding.
It is illegal to have over 16 women live in a house together because that constitutes a brothel. [I've heard of this law posing a problem to sororities]
It it illegal to sleep on top of a refrigerator outdoors.
Any motorist driving along a country road at night must stop every mile and send up a rocket signal, wait 10 minutes for the road to be cleared of livestock, and continue.
A special cleaning ordinance bans housewives from hiding dirt and dust under a rug in a dwelling.
You may not sing in the bathtub.
Fireworks stores may not sell fireworks to Pennsylvania residents.
A person is not eligible to become Governor if he/she has participated in a duel.
Any motorist who sights a team of horses coming toward him must pull well off the road, cover his car with a blanket or canvas that blends with the countryside, and let the horses pass.
Ministers are forbidden from performing marriages when either the bride or groom is drunk.
No more than two packages of beer at a time may be purchased, unless you are buying from an official “beer distributor”.
All liquor stores must be run by the state.
Motorized vehicles are not to be sold on Sundays.
You may not catch a fish with your hands.
You may not catch a fish by any body part except the mouth.
Dynamite is not to be used to catch fish.
Though you do not need a fishing license to fish on your own land, but a hunting license is required to hunt on your own land.
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Curious
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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No harm, no foul...........pretty funny coming from an owl.
These small games of chance licenses are for just that, small games of chance. We had to get one when I was on the board of a parents group for the band at CASHS. As I understand it, these are for those that have small games of chance that are not intended to be a main source of revenue. Maybe there should be some other sort of license for small to midlin games of chance. I'm sure the LCB's problem is the amount these clubs are paying for the license. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Ooooo, I missed the perfect opportunity for a pun there, didn't I?
No harm, no fowl!
I just always thought that there was a little bit of leeway given to social clubs, particularly those for veterans. I was a social member of New Cumberland's Legion, and I'm quite sure that they didn't have such a license but given the relative privacy of these social clubs, I never saw the harm in it.
It's not like they had roulette tables and blackjack going on. |
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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The LCB limits the dollar amount per week paid out in winnings/ ticket repays because they believe in this way the club / bar owners will not be able to use gambling as in impetus to sell more alcohol to already intoxicated people by "luring them into staying and playing."
nuff said. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| springhill wrote: | The LCB limits the dollar amount per week paid out in winnings/ ticket repays because they believe in this way the club / bar owners will not be able to use gambling as in impetus to sell more alcohol to already intoxicated people by "luring them into staying and playing."
nuff said. |
I can see the merits in that, but there are few merits that I can see in what the PA LCB regulates. I think our state's LCB regulations hurt consumers and small businesses far more than the benefits they presumably afford to society's moral torpidity. |
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | Ooooo, I missed the perfect opportunity for a pun there, didn't I?
No harm, no fowl!
I just always thought that there was a little bit of leeway given to social clubs, particularly those for veterans. I was a social member of New Cumberland's Legion, and I'm quite sure that they didn't have such a license but given the relative privacy of these social clubs, I never saw the harm in it.
It's not like they had roulette tables and blackjack going on. |
Police in this area of Pennsylvania will not raid a club for the LCB, nor will the LCB itself, unless they receive a Specific complaint against an establishment/establishments , said complaint usually initiated by a digruntled spouse or a disgruntled employee.
The Saint Thomas legion doesn't have a liquior license, yet they openly sell.
every once in a while someone bitches and the cops raid them and take their booze and the next day they are back in businss.
If this were anything other than that the LCB would yank the Elks club license forever, because they've already been busted in the last ten years for illegal gaming devices on premise (slot machines and video poker). |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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That's the nature of the area we live in; alcohol in public places is the devil, but in private, it's not a problem until someone is personally disgruntled. Talking about turning a blind eye. Small, independent restaurants or taverns could never afford a liquor license, yet social clubs sell 50 cent drafts every night without so much a permit (or a problem).
I'd just like to see Razzles shut down and have their license given to someone responsible. Wouldn't it be cool if a restaurant/bar were opened in downtown Chambersburg with sidewalk seating and beer pong tournaments on the weekends.
Ah, I miss college. Maybe that's just it... |
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Someone in topix corrected me. they told me that the Saint Thomas legion now has a liquior license. I do not see how, in a dry township, but that is what they say. *goes to research* Be back wit the the facts. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2660
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Springhill, does your research include downing a few?
If so, could you bring me a stiff drink or two?
_________________
I demand euphoria! |
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry chel i'm a tea totaler. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2194
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| springhill wrote: | | Sorry chel i'm a tea totaler. |
That must be fun  |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2660
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Eh, nothing wrong with a little tea. 
I'm not sure how I feel knowing that you're as strange as you are without the help of any lovely libation.
I still think you're pretty alright.
_________________
I demand euphoria! |
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springhill
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 177
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I never said I did not libate, I merely said I am a teatotaler  |
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