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Bobo
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 173
Location: Chambersburg
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Presidential election redux |
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45'Chel wrote: | Quote: | | But frankly, some Obama supporters make me feel a little bullied. |
Amen. I get the same feeling. I think they want to intimidate us and get us to shut up about our support for Clinton. But we all have a right to express ourselves without being criticized for our opinions.
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The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago... had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands. ~Havelock Ellis, The Dance of Life, 1923 |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: passionate |
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| Both sides are passionate, but if we aren't careful it will destroy the party and we will lose what was supposed to be an easy win. |
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 356
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a little something that might unite Democrats:
| Quote: | The worst thing that's ever been said about Chelsea Clinton
But doesn't it seem like Chelsea's sort of being pimped out in some weird sort of way?
-- NBC News' David Shuster, talking with pundit Bill Press on MSNBC's "Tucker," Feb. 7, 2008.
As the whole world knows by now, Shuster's ill-conceived and crass remark about the former First Daughter has rocked the race for the White House; the high visible newsman has been suspended by MSNBC, and the Hillary Clinton campaign has gone so far as to say it won't debate Barack Obama on the cable network (one was scheduled for later this month.)
Make no mistake, what Shuster said was pretty stupid and in bad taste. But was it the worst thing ever said about Chelsea Clinton in the public arena?
Not even close.
"Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno."
-- Sen. John McCain, speaking to a Republican dinner, June 1998.
Not only is McCain's hideous attempt at humor about 10 times more tastelessl than what Shuster said (as the David Corn article notes, newspapers that reported on the joke wouldn't even print it), but while the newsman's ill-conceived comment was at least spontaneous, McCain's joke was a prepared remark to a public audience. |
Chelsea would have been 18 years old at the time McCain made his "joke." And McCain would have been 62 - old enough to know better. I think it tells us something about a man's character to be making a joke like that at the expense of a teenage girl. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2060
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. That's really all I can think of to say.  |
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Torgo
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 434
Location: Manos: The Hands of Fate
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: passionate |
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| walrus1 wrote: | | Both sides are passionate, but if we aren't careful it will destroy the party and we will lose what was supposed to be an easy win. |
I fear that already happened the second it came down to Clinton and Obama. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
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"The Master would not approve..." |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: I'm a bad bad man |
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that McCain joke although very wrong, caught me off guard and made me laugh. Don't tell Chelsea.
It was in poor taste the NBC thing, really wrong, but I think they were saying, not very well mind you, that the Clintons said Chelsea was off limits and they were protecting her and she wasn't to be involved but as soon as things got tough for Hillary they seemingly pushed her out to try to get back some of the young vote. Nothing really wrong with that, especially if it was her choice, but in some peoples minds it confirms what they think of the Clintons. I think it is good to have your family supporting you during the campaign, even if your brother is Billy Carter. He was a lovable character. |
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Torgo
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 434
Location: Manos: The Hands of Fate
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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The point can be defended by simply saying Chelsea is old enough to make her decisions this time around.
And anyway, they need to start grooming her for Chelsea v. Jenna 2032 at some point...
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"The Master would not approve..." |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: line up |
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no the schedule is...
2008 Hillary
2012 Hillary
2016 George P. Bush
2020 George P. Bush
2024 Chelsea |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I miss Shuster. 
When he is guest hosting is the only time I watch 'Tucker'
Does anyone know how long he was suspended for?
I did not catch his apology, but I saw Olbermann's apology from the network and I liked how he complimented Shuster's talent and ethic and said it was one poor choice...I wish I had an ounce of K.O's writing ability.
Walrus1, I am trying to be good. I am trying to get you to forgive me and you are teasing me with posts like that.
Edited to Add: I'm afraid the damage has been done to Democratic Party, as Torgo has already pointed out. Yes, there are some who don't see what the big deal is, it's just a typical primary, but there are others who have made it clear that if Clinton wins the nomination it will only be because of backroom dealings. Obama has publicly stated that Clinton will not be able to 'get' his supporters votes and I think he's right. Some of his supporters anyway. Until I spoke to my Grands, I never thought he would have trouble getting Clinton's votes, but I really think McCain might pick some up.
It seems like as the Republicans move more to the center the Democrats are moving further left. Gawd, I hate fringe! (Exception being cute tastefully done outfits and even then, only in moderation.)
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If, lately, it seems as though I've been unreasonable, it is only because I have lost all reason. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Obama Sweeps 3 States, Virgin Islands
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. Barack Obama swept the Louisiana primary and caucuses in Nebraska and Washington state Saturday night, slicing into Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's slender delegate lead in their historic race for the Democratic presidential nomination.
The Illinois senator also won caucuses in the Virgin Islands, completing his best night of the campaign.
"Today, voters from the West Coast to the Gulf Coast to the heart of America stood up to say 'yes we can'" Obama told a cheering audience of Democrats at a party dinner in Richmond, Va.
He jabbed simultaneously at Clinton and Arizona Sen. John McCain, saying the election was a choice between debating the Republican nominee-in-waiting "about who has the most experience in Washington, or debating him about who's most likely to change Washington. Because that's a debate we can win."
Clinton preceded Obama to the podium. She did not refer to the night's voting, instead turning against McCain. "We have tried it President Bush's way," she said, "and now the Republicans have chosen more of the same."
She left quickly after her speech, departing before Obama's arrival. But his supporters made their presence known, sending up chants of "Obama" from the audience as she made her way offstage.
Obama's winning margins ranged from substantial to crushing.
He won roughly two-thirds of the vote in Washington state and Nebraska, and almost 90 percent in the Virgin Islands.
With returns counted from nearly two-thirds of the Louisiana precincts, he was gaining 53 percent of the vote, to 39 percent for the former first lady. As in his earlier Southern triumphs in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina, Obama, a black man, rode a wave of African-American support to victory in Louisiana.
In all, the Democrats scrapped for 161 delegates in the night's contests.
In initial allocations, Obama had won 31, Clinton nine.
In overall totals in The Associated Press count, Clinton had 1,064 delegates to 1,029 for Obama. A total of 2,025 is required to win the nomination at the national convention in Denver.
The Democratic race moved into a new, post-Super Tuesday phase as McCain flunked his first ballot test since becoming the Republican nominee-in-waiting. He lost Kansas caucuses to Mike Huckabee, gaining less than 24 percent of the vote.
Huckabee, the former Arkansas governor, got nearly 60 percent of the vote a few hours after telling conservatives in Washington, "I majored in miracles, and I still believe in them." He won all 36 delegates at stake.
Huckabee also edged ahead of McCain in caucuses in Washington, and in Louisiana's primary, where he flirted with gaining 50 percent of the vote, the requirement for pocketing 20 delegates.
For all his brave talk, Huckabee was hopelessly behind in the delegate race. McCain had 719, compared with 234 for Huckabee and 14 for Texas Rep. Ron Paul. It takes 1,191 to win the nomination at the national convention.
The Democrats' race was as close as the Republicans' was not, a contest between Obama, hoping to become the first black president, and Clinton, campaigning to become the first female commander in chief.
The two rivals contest primaries on Tuesday in Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia, all states where Obama and his campaign are hopeful of winning.
Preliminary results of a survey of voters leaving their polling places in Louisiana showed that nearly half of those casting ballots were black. As a group, African-Americans have overwhelmingly favored Obama in earlier primaries, helping him to wins in several Southern states.
Obama was gaining about 80 percent of the black votes statewide, while Clinton was winning 70 percent support among whites, the exit poll showed.
One in seven Democratic voters and about one in 10 Republicans said Hurricane Katrina had caused their families severe hardship from which they have not recovered. There was another indication of the impact the storm had on the state. Early results suggested that northern Louisiana accounted for a larger share of the electorate than in the past, presumably the result of the decline in population in the hurricane-battered New Orleans area.
McCain cleared his path to the party nomination earlier in the week with a string of Super Tuesday victories that drove former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney from the race. He spent the rest of the week trying to reassure skeptical conservatives, at the same time party leaders quickly closed ranks behind him.
His Kansas defeat aside, McCain also suffered a symbolic defeat when Romney edged him out in a straw poll at the Conservative Political Action Conference meeting across town from the White House.
The day's contests opened a new phase in the Democratic race between Clinton and Obama.
The Feb. 5 Super Tuesday primaries and caucuses in 22 states, which once looked likely to effectively settle the race, instead produced a near-equal delegate split.
That left Obama and Clinton facing the likelihood of a grind-it-out competition lasting into spring - if not to the summer convention itself.
With the night's events, 29 of the 50 states have selected delegates.
Two more - Michigan and Florida - held renegade primaries and the Democratic National Committee has vowed not to seat any delegates chosen at either of them.
Maine, with 24 delegates, holds caucuses on Sunday. Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia and voting by Americans overseas are next, on Tuesday, with 175 combined.
Then follows a brief intermission, followed by a string of election nights, some crowded, some not.
The date of March 4 looms large, 370 delegates in primaries in Ohio, Texas, Rhode Island and Vermont.
Mississippi is alone in holding a primary one week later, with a relatively small 33 delegates at stake.
Puerto Rico anchors the Democratic calendar, with 55 delegates chosen in caucuses on June 7.
If Super Tuesday failed to settle the campaign, it produced a remarkable surge in fundraising.
Obama's aides announced he had raised more than $7 million on line in the two days that followed.
Clinton disclosed she had loaned her campaign $5 million late last month in an attempt to counter her rival's Super Tuesday television advertising. She raised more than $6 million in the two days after the busiest night in primary history.
The television ad wars continued unabated.
Obama has been airing commercials for more than a week in television markets serving every state that has a contest though Feb 19.
Clinton began airing ads midweek in Washington state, Maine and Nebraska, and added Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia on Friday.
The exit poll was conducted by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International for The Associated Press and the television networks. |
Emphasis above is my own.
So here's a question; There has been a great deal of talk about the super delegates or the establishment 'stealing' the nomination from Obama (I don't know who said it and I'm too lazy to look so w/e) What happens if it's a split decision? The chances are getting greater. If Clinton wins by 10 votes, then what? What if Obama wins by 10 votes? How is half the party not going to feel robbed?
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If, lately, it seems as though I've been unreasonable, it is only because I have lost all reason. |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: outcome |
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Actually I am afraid Hillary can't win without it looking like she stole it.
Even with her scenerio, by her relying on the big states it looks like Obama will come out with about a 150-200 pledged delegate lead, more then 30 contests won and as of now he is even winning the popular vote. In Texas and Ohio she is planning to win, but for the delegates to not be split almost evenly she needs to hold him under 40% which she didn't even do in her home state of New York. Now anything can happen but her strategy at this point doesn't look very smart. And by the time Ohio and Texas rolls around she could be Guilliani, you can't sit around getting beat by 20-30 points in contest after contest and it not have an effect nationally. So to win she would need the superdelegates, Florida and Michigan or go to court like she is being rumored, in the media, to be preparing for all of which would split the party. For the good of the party it would be best if one of them would just run the board, either one at this point. A lot of people's opinion of Hillary is that she would destroy the party to win, I hope that is wrong, and I hope if Obama finds himself behind at the end he steps aside also.
If left to blow up, this will not only hurt the party in this election it will hurt it's chances for years to come. With all the young people coming out the Democratic party would be the dominate party for decades, if they feel disenfranchised in either way it will be a missed opportunity. It also won't be good for America, I have no interest in a 100 year Iraq war, and an open border policy that hurts the middle class and abuses immigrants, I don't want four more years of Bush even if he is packaged differently. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Walrus, your concerns for the party sound a bit hollow after your previous statements you would vote for McCain before you ever voted for Clinton.
Me thinks your sudden desire for peace and calls for unity are for no other reason than because 'your guy' is ahead.
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If, lately, it seems as though I've been unreasonable, it is only because I have lost all reason. |
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walrus1
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: hey |
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hey I changed my mind, the party and country is more important then my dislike of that "other" candidate. But I've been thinking and this convention mess worries me, the important thing now is this could destroy the party, I really don't want 8 more years of Bush... And just because Obama is ahead now, barely, it doesn't mean it will stay that way, she could easily blow past him in Texas, Ohio and Pa.. Anything is still possible. Thats why they campaign, because people change their minds. I hope, whatever the outcome, it is a clear win. I don't think anyone should throw in the towel yet, but I would like to see a clear winner before the convention.
At the time I meant what I said, I do respect McCain and actually like him a lot more then Hillary, but I can't support his immigration policies and a 100 year war either. The polls change because people's minds change, how many actually know who they would vote for if their first choice isn't available. I might change my mind next week also if there isn't someone I support 100% and other info comes out. But as of right now, I'm thinking of the party and its future more then any one candidate, including Obama.
I can see your point about what I said earlier. But from what I said earlier you should realize how hard it is to admit,"I might vote for Hillary" ugh I need mouthwash.... |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2060
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Here's a crazy notion; if Clinton and Obama tie, Al Gore becomes the de facto nominee  |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2481
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | | Here's a crazy notion; if Clinton and Obama tie, Al Gore becomes the de facto nominee |
Fine.
It's better than the b*tching about super delegates who have chosen whom they vote for for 25+ years. C. wants them to make continue to vote how they feel (cause more have said they're going to vote for her) O. wants them to vote how their states went, even tho' it means he'll lose Kennedy and Kerry. (See how I cannot even bear to type their freakin' names?!)
Huckabutt has lawyers ready to sue in some state 'cause they declared the election and congratulated McCain with only 85% of the votes in. I though facist scum didn't like lawyers or friviolous lawsuits?!
See how happy I am with the whole bleepin thing?!!
Instead of fighting stupid labels, I'm going to embrace them and act the effing part.
Both parties and all their little monkeys can DIAF (how's that Torgo?)
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If, lately, it seems as though I've been unreasonable, it is only because I have lost all reason. |
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