The Public Opinion Soapbox

postaff · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 123 Location: Chambersburg

The recent heated online discussions about guns and religion have prompted the question below. What are your thoughts? We'd like to publish the best of the discussion.

Is civil discourse possible or even desirable in our democratic system? Many bemoan its absence today and blame the Internet, talk radio and TV. But have we ever really had it and is it necessarily always a good thing? The Boston Tea Party probably wasn't all that civil. Calls for civil discourse sometimes seem to lead straight to "political correctness" guidelines.

Here's a link with some interesting essays on the topic. Others can be found by googling civil discourse.

http://woodstock.georgetown.edu/publications/report/r-fea50.htm

Maggie · Joined: 28 Dec 2007 Posts: 79

You mean to tell me that I missed some Heated Discourse! Daggone it, you people must post the good stuff when I'm not around! Mad

postaff · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 123 Location: Chambersburg

The smoke and fury occurred (and continues) on Topix!

Torgo · Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject:

Yeah, we're all sweetness and light 'round these parts!
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"The Master would not approve..."

armed_citizen · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 234 Location: Chambersburg, PA

I believe it is both possible (though rare) and desirable. I can see the logic that the internet, talk radio and TV have contributed to it's absence, but I'm not sure I buy that. I don't think we've ever really had an abundance of it, simply because most people aren't interested in it.

In my mind, there are two reasons for this: One set of people won't engage because they're to timid to express their thoughts in the face of potential criticism, and another group will engage, but do so with name-calling and venom, justifying the fears of the first group. Those who remain are a minority. An even more rare (and precious) find are those who may disagree with someone else's opinion on a personal level, but find themselves in support of that person in a given situation based on the principle of the matter, not their own predispositions.

True civil discourse is always a good thing. Political correctness guidelines are nothing more than a well-disguised perversion of the process. Events like the Boston Tea Party, Civil War and civil rights advances don't mean that civil discourse is a bad thing, or shouldn't be engaged in. They simply demonstrate that sometimes it takes more extreme measures for our society to actually progress.
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Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2663 Location: Chambersburg

Oh yeah, the discussion on Topix is crazy! There's this poster, jtb, that is trying to justify how atheists hate America. It's actually quite funny.

cookieclaygirl · Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 2289 Location: shippensburg

hum...what about civil disobedience?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

armed_citizen · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 234 Location: Chambersburg, PA

cookieclaygirl · Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 2289 Location: shippensburg

we don't have a whole lot o'protesting going on much anymore. no one fights for anything any more (generalizing of course).

activism almost seems like a sedate version of its old self. like, it's something 'ladies of society' do to amuse themselves.

what happened to our fire? has our nation burnt itself out with its passivity? how can we reignite the flame that once made us shine? i've been thinking alot about this lately....how the role of america has shifted so dramatically within the past number of years....

armed_citizen · Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 234 Location: Chambersburg, PA

Doctor Kird Ape · Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject:

This tale I am about to share is the truth. I know most of my posts are silly and off the wall, and I am not about to suggest that this tale is not silly or off the wall, but it is true.

Around 1995 I was around the University of Pittsburgh. I refer to it as around because I was in and out of college with the frequency of a cheap Ham radio in those days. Pitt was trying to get a road closed (Bigelow blvd) between their student union and the Cathedral of Learning. Keep in mind that this is an urban school and does not have a conventional campus.

I am not good with distances, but I think the expanse they wanted to remove was approximately 70 yards. This stretch of road had 3 separate cross walks. This is no super highway, just a city street. I mention this because a few students had been hit by cars that year on Bigelow Blvd.

(I am going somewhere on topic with this)

Due to the way Oakland (the neighborhood of Pittsburgh, where Pitt is located) was set up Bigelow was crucial for the remaining small businesses in Oakland. If one were to close Bigelow, the traffic would need to be diverted to other streets. These streets were being used by the small businesses to legally off load their supplies. Needing the streets to have two open lanes, would take away the loading zones. Not only that but Bigelow is a frequently used through way in the middle of Pitt's campus.

Now to the topic at hand. A friend of mine told me about the whole closing of Bigelow and I said so what. He explained that they wanted to close it down and extend the lawn from the Cathedral of Learning to the small lawn surrounding the student union. On paper.

Many students were expressing their support of this in Pitt's student paper, The Pitt News. They liked the idea of a mini park on campus. Sadly, to me, more of them were excited about the crossing the street problem.

This is where I started to get my mind reeling. I looked at what I saw and knew from experience and decided the following opinions.

1) The students were idiots. Look both ways before crossing, you are a young adult attending University, not an elementary school student.

2) Pitt was full of it. They would not build a park. They would build a parking lot. A few years earlier they bought and tore down a nice little music venue and turned it into a cyclone fence surrounded parking lot.

3) Pitt knew of the traffic situation and what would happen to the businesses, primarily bars that they had been trying to get rid of for years.

4) I had to do something about it.

So my friend, that brought the situation to my attention, and I spent several hours in front of the dorm near where we lived, waiting for shuttles to arrive. When the shuttles would drop off the students we would yell "Keep Bigelow Open" the shout out our shared beliefs as listed above. I got some people's attention (mostly friends).

Later that night in a Oakland bar, some of these folks and my previously mentioned buddy and I came up with a plan:

Two days later we would form two human chains to block Bigelow Blvd, to demonstrate the traffic nightmare that not having Bigelow open would create. We would call the news to make sure that we did not get beaten by campus police. We talked as many people as we could into showing up.

Needless to say 3 days later there were a few people mad at me and my buddy. We did not show. He did not because he found out I was not going to show up. The reason: Sneakers. The sad thing is people did show to protest for something they believed in, or at least to make a public spectacle.

I feel its unfair if I don't explain about the sneakers. The day after the drunken planning session, my mother actually got me on the telephone. She asked what I had been up to. (Your normal parental conversation) I bluntly told her what I was getting involved in. She worked for a State Senator at the time and she did not like this at all. So she offered to buy me new sneakers if I did not do it.

I compromised for new shoes. Sorry for such a long post with such a bad ending, but its true.

Side note: Bigelow is still open!
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The Anti-Life Equation= Loneliness + Alienation + Fear + Despair + Self-worth / Mockery / Condemnation / Misunderstanding x Guiltx Shame x Failure x Judgment; N=Y Where Y=Hope and N=Folly, Love = Lies, Life = Death, Self = Dark Side

QueenofHearts · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 386 Location: On the Computer

Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that if you protest against anything that is exceptional, even though it should be protested against, you might/will be arreted. Hence, lack of involvement for fear of detainment. And this coming from a former cop!
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Unless they share our opinions, we seldom find people sensible.

Doctor Kird Ape · Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:

The is also the threat of potential backlash against family.
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The Anti-Life Equation= Loneliness + Alienation + Fear + Despair + Self-worth / Mockery / Condemnation / Misunderstanding x Guiltx Shame x Failure x Judgment; N=Y Where Y=Hope and N=Folly, Love = Lies, Life = Death, Self = Dark Side

cookieclaygirl · Joined: 03 Dec 2007 Posts: 2289 Location: shippensburg

i remembered one line in sicko that really stood out for me....something to the extent that in other countries, the governement is afraid of the people but in the u.s. the people are afraid of the government....

now....i'm not saying, go out there and get arrested, however...where did our fire go? is it still there or are we under a cloud of generalized passivity? or did we just get lazy? much to ponder...

Doctor Kird Ape · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject:

I think it is just easier not to do anything and sit and be more concerned with Brit Brit, than to do something about the world around you.
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The Anti-Life Equation= Loneliness + Alienation + Fear + Despair + Self-worth / Mockery / Condemnation / Misunderstanding x Guiltx Shame x Failure x Judgment; N=Y Where Y=Hope and N=Folly, Love = Lies, Life = Death, Self = Dark Side