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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2267
Location: Chambersburg
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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I still believe that Saddam was a stabilizing force in the middle east. Yeah, he was a bad dude and ruthless dictator, but many Iraqis themselves agree that they had it better off under Saddam... not to mention the tremendous loss of Iraqi civilian life as a result of the invasion and the ongoing insurgency.
And the excuses don't make sense now; we (and by "we" i mean both the American people and Congress) were convinced to go to war based on a post-9/11 fear of terrorism and the notion that WMD's and Iraqi links to Al Qaeda was a "slam dunk."
Now we know that was based on lies and false information; even President Bush has stated he takes responsibility for the mistakes made leading up to the Iraqi invasion, although he hasn't made it very clear what mistakes he means.
That all being said, it has most certainly broken our military, left us unable to defend our own shores from anything from illegal immigration to devastating hurricanes. But mostly, it has distracted us from our only clear target, Osama bin Laden; "dead or alive," the unity of our nation against a common enemy has been blurred to the likes of young Muslim men with improvised explosive devices.
So if you think we, and the world, is better of now that it was before invading Iraq, then I would wholeheartedly disagree. And just as it's been said, time and time again, ridding the world of a ruthless dictator is a positive step forward, but the collateral damage and lasting destruction was not; not when the world is full of ruthless dictators who we would prefer to have nothing to do with... except Iran. With Saddam out of the picture as a secular, non-extremist Islamic leader and rival to Iran, we now have a new threat to worry about as well.
All while bin Laden runs free.
Now, call me as UnAmerican as you want, my opinion holds more weight to me than a gas-guzzling SUV and several magnetic ribbons slapped on the back. |
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armed_citizen
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Chambersburg, PA
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | I still believe that Saddam was a stabilizing force in the middle east. Yeah, he was a bad dude and ruthless dictator, but many Iraqis themselves agree that they had it better off under Saddam... not to mention the tremendous loss of Iraqi civilian life as a result of the invasion and the ongoing insurgency.
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I'm sure there are many Iraqi's that would also say they are better off now that Saddam is gone. There was tremendous loss of life during some critical forging points of our own country. Tens of thousands of these lives lost were technically military because they put on a uniform, but were just ordinary people who set their own lives aside to fight for what they believed in. They had not made a conscious choice to pursue a military 'career'. They went to defend the way of life they believed in, hoping to return to that way of life as soon as the conflict was resolved.
| Coppy wrote: |
That all being said, it has most certainly broken our military, left us unable to defend our own shores from anything from illegal immigration to devastating hurricanes. But mostly, it has distracted us from our only clear target, Osama bin Laden; "dead or alive," the unity of our nation against a common enemy has been blurred to the likes of young Muslim men with improvised explosive devices.
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If you by 'broken' you mean the spirits of the men and women on the front lines, I disagree. Clearly it has left our supply and readiness for some unknown conflict in bad form. However, it is not the military's job to enforce our immigration policy or to provide disaster relief.
As much as I'd like to see bin Laden's head atop a pole on the White House lawn, I'm not naive enough to think that would bring an end to the terrorist threats we face. In fact, it may even increase attempts. Even so, that doesn't deter me from my belief that he deserves to die for the evil he has committed.
Is the world "better" than it was before we took down Saddam? Hard to say. I do think it's literally amazing that we have not suffered another successful attack on our own soil since 9/11. What saddens me is that I believe there are equal parts of dumb luck and Constitutional violation mixed in with the tireless efforts of the LEO community in order to achieve this goal.
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sassy moose
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | | Now, call me as UnAmerican as you want, my opinion holds more weight to me than a gas-guzzling SUV and several magnetic ribbons slapped on the back. |
Only slightly off-topic...
I was pulling into the mall yesterday evening, and the car in front of me had one of those yellow magnetic ribbons. Except this one said, no kidding, "I support more troops than you." |
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armed_citizen
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 212
Location: Chambersburg, PA
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| sassy moose wrote: | | I was pulling into the mall yesterday evening, and the car in front of me had one of those yellow magnetic ribbons. Except this one said, no kidding, "I support more troops than you." |
I'd think this was meant in jest, but these days you just don't know.
My friend calls all of these displays (magnet, lapel, etc.) "I care more than you do ribbons", because they seem to be less about 'awareness' and more about personal attention.
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| My favorite yellow ribbon magnet said, "As if anyone doesn't." |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2751
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a bumper sticker that said, "My SUV loves Iraqi oil" I couldn't figure out if it had been stuck on by a stranger or if the driver was really that much of d!ck. 
I dunno, AnonyMouse, there are some stupid people out there. There were some grungy people who used to protest outside of Ft. Gordon in GA and Ft Detrick in Frederick, MD. They'd gather around soldier's cars while they were leaving and scream all kinds of sweet stuff.
One of them spit on our car, it was all I could do to keep H from having a 'conversation' with him.
Definitely in the minority though, I think a lot of them were just dumb kids who were angry and felt like they needed to protest something...we were just the most noticeable and easiest targets.
It's situations like that cause bad blood tho' and the incidents tend to stick in your memory.
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sassy moose
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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And speaking of protests...the Kent State shooting happened 38 years ago today, May 4, 1970.
Taken on campus two weeks ago:
(bullet hole in a sculpture)
(memorials where each student fell) |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2751
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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A true travesty
Thank you for the pictures, Sassy.
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| .45chel wrote: | I saw a bumper sticker that said, "My SUV loves Iraqi oil" I couldn't figure out if it had been stuck on by a stranger or if the driver was really that much of d!ck.
I dunno, AnonyMouse, there are some stupid people out there. There were some grungy people who used to protest outside of Ft. Gordon in GA and Ft Detrick in Frederick, MD. They'd gather around soldier's cars while they were leaving and scream all kinds of sweet stuff.
One of them spit on our car, it was all I could do to keep H from having a 'conversation' with him.
Definitely in the minority though, I think a lot of them were just dumb kids who were angry and felt like they needed to protest something...we were just the most noticeable and easiest targets.
It's situations like that cause bad blood tho' and the incidents tend to stick in your memory. |
I agree, Chel - I know there are people out there who actually don't support the troops.
I personally think the Iraq war is a travesty, but I have nothing but respect for those who have such a strong sense of duty to the constitution and loyalty to their fellow citizens that they are willing to put themselves in harm's way. I admire and respect that level of conviction.
What chaps me is when I am accused of hating the troops or hating my country because I think our president was consciously dishonest in leading us into an unnecessary war.
Are there active service men and women who don't support their mission? What is the appropriate thing for them to do? |
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Case in point - from today's PO:
| Quote: | Letter to the editor: Protests deliver the wrong message
Public Opinion Online
With five years invested in the war in Iraq, I felt it necessary to address the negativity that seems to have embraced parts of our society.
Although I fully believe in the Constitution and its ability to offer us the freedoms we enjoy, I am ashamed at how citizens, especially here in Chambersburg, use it to fuel their own passions.
It saddened me to open the paper the other day and find citizens of Chambersburg standing on the Memorial Square with signs opposing the war.
They have an absolute right to do so. However, I don't think they understand the ramifications of their protests -- the very people soldiers are sworn to defend are protesting what they must do. These are not words of support.
I fully comprehend the disappointment people feel in our government, in it's decisions and the blatant use of power. Yet, today, that is not the issue. The issue is these brave men and women, who have left their families, children, husbands and wives.
Our community's largest employer is Letterkenny Army Depot, which manufactures weapons, and rebuilds military equipment. Do you, the protesters, protest your significant other, relative or friend going to work?
Thousands in this community work at Letterkenny. They stop working and stand every day to hear the national anthem. They believe in that cause. They believe in our men and women. It's tragic that we all can't do that.
We need to go back to basics. Our soldiers are doing what they were trained to do. They deserve someone standing in the street with a sign that says: "Thank you, you're doing a great job."
We owe them this.
Jennifer Cavanna
Chambersburg |
I didn't see the signs the protesters were carrying, but I can't imagine they said anything against the soldiers. In Ms Cavanna's mind, if you oppose this war you want the troops to die and you aren't patriotic. That sort of black-and-white thinking leads to all kinds of problems. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2751
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| AnonyMouse wrote: |
Are there active service men and women who don't support their mission? What is the appropriate thing for them to do? |
Abso-friggin-lutely!!
In fact, I can only think of, maybe two that support this mess, that I know of. Of course, I believe it also depends on your military occupation and the unit you're assigned to, as well. Some Commanding Officers will not tolerate any opinions other than their own (not like they talk to enlisted personnel most of the time anyway.) AND (this will sound elitist) in regards to occupations, the jobs you qualify for are related to how high you score on the ASVAB (which is very similar to an IQ test), so whereas you may have some highly intelligent infantry men you will never see a satellite operator who has scored lower than 119. (I'm sure they have changed it of late, they dumbed down everything, but you get the idea.) AND a unit of more intelligent soldiers is going to have a freer exchange of ideas---they also tend to question authority more and be smart a$$es, but that's why they're so much fun!! 
The thing is, you are not to speak of it in public. You never go 'on record' with reservations about any mission. Ever.
It used to be that you could not talk politics while in uniform or identified as a service member, (the Orrin Hatch Act) but during the 2004 elections you couldn't talk politics period...especially if you didn't support Bush. It was good way to get extra-duty, depending on the unit your were in.
AND Few people want to worry their family and loved ones by speaking openly about the going ons, especially if their family members are the type that are found in this area...no offense to them, but the "flag waving--God Bless America--our president can do no wrong--never question the government in times of war---we would have won Vietnam---Saddam was behind 9/11 types.
---Those people are what they are, you won't change their minds and you learn to appreciate your family so much more when you don't get to see them and don't know where you will be in six months. You don't want to mess precious moments up by scaring or fighting with them.
It doesn't really matter if you believe in what you're doing or not. If it's an illegal order, you can refuse it, but when talking about deployments you have to go or you face dishonorable discharge (and your C.Os will drag out your discharge for months, I know a guy who was trying to be kicked out for being overweight so he wouldn't be deployed...he's been doing crap work, extra PT and pulling extra-duty for years! He never was deployed, but they've made his life miserable...his enlistment ends sometime this year, but he first tried to get out in 2003...that's a long time to be someone's whipping boy!)
But when you're in the thick of it, you make it about your battle buddies, your comrades, you don't think about the big picture, you think about the here and now and tell yourself whatever you need to to keep yourself going.
It's not like you can quit. And there is no such thing as friendly fire.
Sorry to be so long-winded and soory for all the 'ANDs'. Believe me, I left a lot out, but if I wasn't clear, please let me know and I will try to clarify.
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2751
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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In regards to Ms. Cavanna's letter
Well, I threw my two cents in, but no one who disagrees with me will be swayed by my view.
For your own sanity, I think you should stay away from Topix, AnonyMouse. I worry for you.
Stay in here with us. please?
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| .45chel wrote: | | AnonyMouse wrote: |
Are there active service men and women who don't support their mission? What is the appropriate thing for them to do? |
Abso-friggin-lutely!!
In fact, I can only think of, maybe two that support this mess, that I know of. |
| Quote: | In regards to Ms. Cavanna's letter
Well, I threw my two cents in, but no one who disagrees with me will be swayed by my view. |
I saw your Topix posts after I copied the letter here. They were very sound and sensible as usual.
What's your reaction to conscientious objectors? I've heard of soldiers who believe in serving their country, but once in a war they believe is unjust, want out. They aren't trying to leave out of cowardice but because of real conviction that they are engaged in something immoral. There's a law that allows that, but I don't think any soldier is ever successful trying to use it. Have you ever heard of that? |
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| .45chel wrote: |
For your own sanity, I think you should stay away from Topix, AnonyMouse. I worry for you.
Stay in here with us. please? |
I deeply enjoy discussions of faith. I am also deeply offended when people claim my faith, the faith of the Prince of Peace, but hurl ugly, hateful, contemptable attacks at people. Those "Christian" bullies on Topix do damage to the name of Jesus, and I take that personally. I just need to sort out how to respond to it. I think addressing it head-on like I've done lately isn't particularly Christian either, so I'll be backing off.
Do you think there would be any response to a "Faith" topic in here? I'm not interested in arguing - just in having discussion with sincere people, not matter what their particular conviction is. I'd be respectful.  |
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sassy moose
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| AnonyMouse wrote: | | I deeply enjoy discussions of faith. I am also deeply offended when people claim my faith, the faith of the Prince of Peace, but hurl ugly, hateful, contemptable attacks at people. Those "Christian" bullies on Topix do damage to the name of Jesus, and I take that personally. |
Amen! Those people bug me, too.  |
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