The Public Opinion Soapbox

Bobo · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 173 Location: Chambersburg

Did anyone see this story in today's (Jan. 14) PO about the minister who supports Mike Huckabee, saying that he's tired of people challenging politically active churches' nonprofit status?

This guy (and others like him) are trying to strip me of my rights as a citizen, but they want me and all taxpayers to give them a pass on paying taxes? Give me a break. This is the kind of thing that's destroying America - not gay people getting married.

Rev. Keen, get out of politics and stick to religion. And please, stop trying to force your religion on everyone else, and then expect us to treat you like you're above the law.

Sorry everyone, but I'm ticked.
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The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago... had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands. ~Havelock Ellis, The Dance of Life, 1923

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

This story legitimately upset me as well. I typically don't get too worked up over the whole religious self-righteousness thing, but this Rev. Keen clearly doesn't "get it."

I don't know what else to say. He should be required to take that sign down.

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

So does anyone have any discussion on this? As far as I can tell, this Reverend want to tell his congregation how they should vote despite it being a violation of the most basic principle of separation of church and state. It doesn't matter if he wants to give up his tax exempt status, that's not really what this is all about. If it was about paying taxes, then I would be upset that we're building churches instead of schools and hospitals.

No, this is about imposing your political views on impressionable people, and this country was founded more or less on the principle that people are free to worship and practice whatever religion they choose, provided that the churches and government do not influence each other. I think that's a pretty fair trade off; I'm not required to pay for a state-run church, and churches are exempt from paying taxes provided they don't meddle in the government.

I don't understand what the big deal is? He's free to vote for who he chooses, does he think anti-Democrat or pro-Huckabee sermons will pack more people in?

I hope it ends here, but if this guy presses the issue, we could see this end up in court.

Bobo · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 173 Location: Chambersburg

Coppy, from what I hear, a number of churches - I believe mostly those that would be called "evangelical" style churches - commonly discuss politics and preachers go so far as to tell their congregants whom to vote for in elections. I had a colleague a few years ago who said this was common at her church, and I know the same thing goes on at my sister's church. I find it appalling, but I guess for many, it's the norm.
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The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago... had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands. ~Havelock Ellis, The Dance of Life, 1923

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

Well it's not like you can take any of these churches to task on it; if you send a church to court, they're not going to be seen as the bad guy. I just think it undermines the constitution.

Wile_E · Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 51

This is an example of having your cake and eating it too. If a church comes out in public support of a politician, they have crossed the line. Bye-bye tax exemption IMO. Neutral

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"You know the score pal. If you're not cop, you're little people!"

AnonyMouse · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 522

Christians should be the strongest advocates for separating church and state.

Jesus' nation was ruled by foreign occupiers. Some believed that the occupiers should be overthrown by violent means. These were called zealots. Others were complicit with the occupiers - they made contracts with the Roman government to collect exorbitant taxes from their own people who could barely afford it. The nature of these contracts allowed the tax collectors to keep any portion of money they collected over and above the Roman demands, so tax collectors enriched themselves on the backs of their poor countrymen. This is why the tax collectors were dispised.

You likely couldn't find two groups of people - zealots and tax collectors - with more different points of view on the government of their day. Yet Jesus chose one of each to be his disciples and there is not a word in the scriptures about that issue. Jesus certainly could have gotten involved in trying to save his people by using the political system of his day (in fact, that's what the zealots expected of their savior), but he deliberately avoided that, choosing radical love, forgiveness, and self-sacrifice as his way.

Christians today would do well to follow Jesus' example. Pastor Reed says "I believe in preaching Jesus first," but he's missing the core of the good news. Jesus has nothing to say about the political system and certainly hasn't expressed an opinion on Mike Huckabee.

Regarding the tax exempt thing - the law is pretty clear that a church jeopardizes their non-profit status if they endorse a specific candidate. Pastor Reed is certainly inviting an audit by putting that message on his sign and I sort of hope he gets what he wants.

AnonyMouse · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 522

It's also interesting to me that Pastor Reed has Romans 12:2 on his sign to support his position. That verse says: "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." That's a verse I believe supports our separation from the corrupt things of the world, including politics (which is, in my opinion, nearly hopelessly corrupt).

Paul, the author of the book of Romans, was encouraging the church to love everyone and be at peace with everyone. In chapter 12, he goes on to say,

Jo · Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 112 Location: Chambersburg

Growing up in a strict evangelical home my parents endorsed the voting for or against a candidate on a single issue. It didn't take long for me to realize this short-sighted approach was advocated by the church. My parents still find it convenient to vote or not vote for a candidate based on a single issue (theirs is abortion). My arguments to them fall on deaf ears as they simply abstain from voting if there is no anti-abortion candidate.

How screwy is that?

What happens when the entire church votes for Huckabee, he gets elected (not likely, but speculating here) and the next week the Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker past the guy has cleverly hidden is suddenly exposed? They're putting this candidate on a pedestal.

I agree completely with Anonymouse that the Christians should be the staunchest advocates for separation of church and state! No man higher than Christ and no word higher than The Word, right?
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Me thinks that the moment my legs begin to move, my thoughts begin to flow. ~ Henry David Thoreau on hiking

sassy moose · Joined: 02 Jan 2008 Posts: 284 Location: Virginia

.45chel · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 3043 Location: Chambersburg

Maybe my family members just pick shady churches, because only my mom and dad's United Methodist church has not openly encouraged certain candidates (in the past and currently.)

Georgians are nutty, though.

As for the article in question, I'm reporting this church to the IRS.
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Nevermind.

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

First of all, AnonyMouse, I'm not sure anyone could have presented a better argument on this.

I would like to think that most churches are not overly concerned with politics since that most certainly is not the message of Christianity.

But I am upset about it, I'm not going to pretend I'm not. For Rev. Keen to not just defiantly endorse a political candidate but to also go to the local newspaper and put up a sign out of what seems to be spite... it all just doesn't come across as very Christian to me. WWJD Rev. Keen?

This seems counter-productive to me in a free and open society where everyone is free to worship as they choose. Huckabee may very well be out of the race by the time PA's April primary rolls around. Then this will be all for nothing. I suppose that's not the point though, but to me, it almost seems like the point is to make a big deal about this to make a point.

If I were a member of this church, i would be very wary of this type of evangelicalism.

AnonyMouse · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 522

Irish1 · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 62 Location: Montgomery Township

I've been by that so called church (it is in the old wandas used furniture building) everyday of the week and at all different times of the day. I would not worry about the dozen members making that much of a difference, I don't recall ever seeing more than 5 or 10 vehicles in the lot except when they are having a yard sale. Rev. Keen is trying to be a big fish in a very small pond, or he has just watched the Jesus Camp Documentary if you have not seen this film you must see these Pentecostals in action, preaching hatred.

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

Oh, I think I know the one... on Route 30 between Chambersburg and St. Thomas?

I still can't say I agree with him going to the PO with this story (but I do thank the PO for reporting it). What I'm curious to hear are views of other area pastors on this topic and if they agree with Rev. Keen and his frustration over this issue. It seems as if most church congregations are content to practice their faith privately and freely as the freedom of America permits. It seems that individual political freedom is something to hold onto even when it comes to something as divisive and emotional as presidential candidates.

So, I decided to do what I do best and try a little research on the matter. I wanted to see if this is a trend or a national agenda among churches across the country. It turns out that there is very little info or news on pastors endorsing political candidates from the pulpit and, in particularly, a willingness to defer section 501(c)(3) tax exempt status.

I did find this article from 2004 from "newsdesk.org" which, from what I can tell, is a non-partisan, independent source of investigative journalism that specializes in stories that "slip through the cracks."

You're welcome to read the entire article here, but I've chosen a portion that I think may be relevant...