 |
The Public Opinion Soapbox
Welcome to the Public Opinion's community message board. You must be registered to post, and all posts are subject to moderation by our staff.
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: HDTV and HDMI Cables |
 |
|
Just thought I'd share this with all; I purchased an HDTV set a few months ago and did a lot of research on all of the components. Since I'd previously been watching TV on a 19" Panasonic I've had since high school, I figured it was time to go all out. LCD HDTV, high-end receiver, 5.1 surround sound and upconverting DVD (not quite ready to shell out for High-Def DVD yet).
But if there is one thing every consumer needs to be aware of, it's cables. The biggest scam in modern electronics has to do with a perception that digital cables have varying qualities, when in fact, they do not. Here is an article that explains, in detail, how you can avoid getting scammed at your local "big box" electronics retailer (or any other one).
| Quote: | If you have purchased a new HDTV set recently, you are already familiar with HDMI cables. If you are thinking about purchasing an HDTV anytime soon, you are about to be initiated. The problem is that HDMI cables have become a popular way to scam customers. If you know about this scam, you will be able to save yourself a lot of money.
So let's start at the beginning. When you own an HDTV, you need to have a way to get a high definition signal onto the screen. The signal can come from a cable box, a DVD or Blueray player, a video game console or a satellite antenna. The easy, high tech way to carry that signal from the video source to the screen is a piece of wire called an HDMI cable.
An HDMI cable truly is an innovation. It carries all the video information to the screen in digital form, plus it carries all the sound information. Just a few years ago it took five or more cables to carry all this information and it wasn't digital, meaning that it could degrade along the way. With HDMI it is all in one slim cable. It couldn't be easier to connect things like cable boxes to a new HDTV.
So where's the scam? You can find the scam by going to any big box electronics retailer and looking in the cable aisle. There you will find HDMI cables priced as low as $25 or $30 (if not, definitely head toward your local discount retailer for better prices). But you will also find HDMI cables priced above $100. And if you talk to a sales person, he will definitely be steering you toward the most expensive model. That is the scam. You can understand the scam if you understand how an HDMI cable works and what it does.
Let's begin by going back in history to the birth of really expensive cables. It started with speaker wire. When you connect a normal speaker to a normal stereo system, you are sending both a signal (in the form of an oscillating wave) and a lot of power (potentially hundreds of watts) through the speaker cable. Someone realized that to send a lot of power, a thick cable would cause less distortion. Thus, mega cables were born. And they were expensive.
But with an HDMI cable, you aren't sending any oscillating analog waves, nor any power. What you are sending is a low-power digital signal. The digital signal is either on or off, and it is impossible to distort it without ruining it. The great thing about a digital signal is that, even if there is a little noise in the cable (and there always is, no matter how good the cable), the TV will clean it up when it interprets the digital signal. The whole beauty of moving to a digital world is that it eliminates distortion completely.
What this means to you is that there really is no such thing as a "better" HDMI cable. Either an HDMI cable works or it does not. If it doesn't work, you will immediately know it. Your screen will freeze, or it will skip frames, or it will show big square blocks instead of a picture. It will be completely obvious that there is a problem. In that case you need to throw the cable away.
But if an HDMI cable is working correctly, your TV's picture will look exactly the same no matter how much the cable costs. Paying more for a cable will have no effect on picture quality.
Now that you know this, you can see what you need to do as a consumer. When buying an HDMI cable, you can buy on price and get the cheapest one.
That being said, there is one two things you do need to be aware of when purchasing an HDMI cable. First, you have to get the right length. If the cable isn't long enough, it won't reach to the HDTV. Second, HDMI cables have version numbers. For example, version 1.3 of HDMI can carry twice as much data as prior versions. If you buy a high-end HDTV that needs a version 1.3 cable, you need to make sure that the cable you buy supports version 1.3. Otherwise you are not getting everything that the equipment has to offer. In that case buy the cheapest version 1.3 cable available, and it will work fine. |
I found HDMI cables on Amazon.com for less that $10 each. My signal? Crystal clear.
Now if you head to a local retailer that recently opened, one that may or may not have initials like "CC" or "BB," they may try to show you ridiculous interpretations of how a certain brand of HDMI cable shows a superior image. Yet, if you look behind each set, you'll find that the "lesser quality" image is being broadcast on an analog cable. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sassy moose
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Location: Virginia
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My boyfriend is the biggest TV geek I've ever known. He just read your post and was SO happy that someone else noticed this problem.
He says, like you did, that all HDMI cables are the same. And like the article said, as long as one works, you'll get the exact same picture no matter how much you spend on one. He likened it to connecting your printer to your computer with a USB cable. As long as it works, you're going to get the same result. Your printer isn't going to print at a lower quality because your cable is cheap. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From Amazon.com:
Inspire HDMI (2 meter) 6 foot cable HQ 1080P 1.3b
Price: $1.10
Monster HDMI 1000HD Ultra-High Speed HDMI Cable (2 meters)
List Price: $129.95
Technically speaking, the Inspire cable is the better cable. It is HDMI 1.3b; a newer, better digital cabling standard.
The Monster cable is HDMI 1.3
This is the greatest scam in the history of electronics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anonymous_coward
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 532
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yes, but again it's just a cable. I can't think there would be anythign different with the 1.3b designated cable. I always wondered about that, makes sense that a digital signal wouldn't need a large gauge, and as long as it's a twisted pair and shielded it shouldn't matter. Does anyone know if the protocol for digital tv signals is done over one high/ low pair, or are there multiple pairs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anonymous_coward
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 532
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
The following is from Amazon, yes I realize they're biased. and no I'm not saying you'd have better quality picture from an expensive cable. I would believe however that the expensive cables have capacity for more bandwidth (I had no idea that the tvs needed 2Gbps, your computer is probably good for about 0.1Gbps and probably never uses that nearly that much, also computer networks are more forgiving of lost messages because they can do more error checking, a tv cannot as much, because it needs the message when it needs it to show on screen). The larger capacity may or may not be useful in the future. if I were a betting man I'd imagine they'll continue to introduce new connectors so they can sell more cables. Sorry for the long windedness for the same conclusion, I just find networking and digital messages interesting.
| Quote: |
A common misconception is that all HDMI cables are the same--so why not just buy the cheapest cables you can find? The truth is that there are many levels of High-Definition digital video, and there are different levels of HDMI cables to connect them. High-Definition (720p/1080i) as we know it today is delivered at a 2.2 Gbps (giga-bits per second) throughput rate. Although high compared to standard DVD at .81 Gbps, it won't achieve the best performance from High-Definition in the near future, which will require 10.2 Gbps and more. Previous generation HDMI cables developed to meet the original 2.2 Gbps standard are not certified for the new standard and may not pass the full bandwidth required to provide the best performance from these new products.
Unlike computer data, which is tolerant of data transmission losses, video data is not. Accurate transmission is essential. Most HDMI-compliant cables can transfer older versions of High-Definition (720p/1080i) data rate over short lengths, but have problems maintaining the same performance over longer lengths as well as higher data rates required of 1080p. HDMI cables are very sensitive to construction variances. With HDMI's super-high data rate and microscopically tight tolerances, even mishandling the cables during an install can significantly affect performance. Look for better shielded connectors, mesh jackets for durability, special winding techniques, nitrogen gas dielectrics to minimize loss, and CL 3 jacket ratings to ensure maximum performance with every installation. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
They don't; it is absolutely, positively a myth that somehow more expensive cables have "more bandwidth." You did read the article right? It's from "How Stuff Works." They usually get stuff like that right.
Now for the life of me, I can't tell if there's any significant difference between HDMI 3.0 and HDMI 3.0b, but 3.0b is a newer standard that was released in November. Any HDMI cable will work, clearly, but if you have a 3.0 capable TV and use a 1.0 HDMI cable, then it probably won't be quite as good. Although, I use HDMI 1.0 at home and I'm not sure it could look much better than it does.
That quote you listed is not from Amazon; it is from Monster, a company desperate to differentiate their astronomically expensive product from others. And while their write-up is true, it is not explaining that it is the difference between HDMI 1.0 and HDMI 3.0. How many Gbps transmitted through a cable is based solely on the standard (1.0, 2.0, 3.0 etc) and has absolutely, positively nothing to do with price. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anonymous_coward
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 532
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cables are all about ability to not lose messages at a given bandwidth. nowhere in your original article does it state that the cheap cables can handle as much bandwidth as the expensive ones without packet loss. I agree that the cheap ones apparently can handle the amount of bandwidth required without losing too many message, but the expensive ones are technically "better". As far as 1.0 or 3.0 or whatever, a cable is a cable. so the cheap cables either can handle the bandwidth of the new protocol or they can't. Cables are really nothing but strands of wire. There are methods, twisting, shielding, etc, to reduce interference by rfi, emi, but assuming the cable can handle the load caused by the message load, the protocol doesn't matter. I'm trying to agree with you, but with a caveat, expensive cables are technically better, you just probably don't need them. Sort of like how your car either needs 93 octane fuel or it doesn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
anonymous_coward
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 532
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Coppy wrote: | | How many Gbps transmitted through a cable is based solely on the standard (1.0, 2.0, 3.0 etc) and has absolutely, positively nothing to do with price. |
there not saying your tv will receive more messages with a better cable, they're sayign the cable can provide the pathway for more messages if the protocol provided them, which I agree it doesn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| anonymous_coward wrote: | | cables are all about ability to not lose messages at a given bandwidth. nowhere in your original article does it state that the cheap cables can handle as much bandwidth as the expensive ones without packet loss. |
Packet loss isn't really as issue with any digital medium unless you get to long lengths. I've heard this varies, that you can experience some degradation in quality from as little as 10 feet of cable to not until 30 ft or more. This, of course, doesn't really factor into the vast majority of home theater setups where cables are unlikely to ever require lengths in excess of 10 feet.
If you're piping a 1080p signal and 5.1 audio through a 30 foot, cheap cable, then it may be an issue. But that doesn't mean you should pay the $200+ price tag for four meters of Monster cable.
After a little more research, Monster's latest scam is, as you pointed out, "speed rating" their cables. But here's the rub; they really DO operate at varying speeds. The problem they are presenting to consumers is "you don't know how fast that cheap HDMI cable really is." And to be honest, right now, it doesn't matter. But Monster says that if you buy their most expensive, "Ultra-High-Speed" HDMI cable, it comes with a lifetime warranty that will replace it if someday the standard gets even faster.
This is all fine and good, but doesn't seem necessary when you can just keep buying newer, far less expensive and compatible cables at a fraction of the cost.
Plus, they are offering cables speeds in forms that are completely useless with today's technology. And if you think about it, probably won't be necessary in the foreseeable future. There are no plans to bump up broadcast TV to 1080p at any time, and 1080p is where you max out for Blu-Ray. The "slowest" Monster cable on the other hand is far slower than the cheapest of HDMI cables.
Anyway, here is a great online discussion on whether or not the outlandish price of a "high-speed" Monster HDMI cable is worth it as compared to the $6 HDMI 3.0b from Inspire (Monoprice).
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=952385 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just curious AC, do you have a home theater setup? Got any specs?
I know, I'm a total geek, what can I say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cookieclaygirl
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 1946
Location: shippensburg
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Coppy wrote: |
I know, I'm a total geek, what can I say. |
geek is good. geek/nerd power!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sassy moose
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 250
Location: Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cookieclaygirl wrote: | | Coppy wrote: |
I know, I'm a total geek, what can I say. |
geek is good. geek/nerd power! |
My friend got me a shirt for Christmas that says Geek is sexy.
http://www.thinkgeek.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2399
Location: Chambersburg
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow. That's truly geeky. And nauseatingly corny. Even for me! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Talking Horse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Cove Gap
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Uhhh - guys - correct me if I am wrong - more of an audio guy here...
But dont the HDMI cables carry hi-res audio as well?...point is - it's not all about the picture...
_________________
Do everything that's in you, you feel to be your part... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Talking Horse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Cove Gap
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| A Talking Horse wrote: | Uhhh - guys - correct me if I am wrong - more of an audio guy here...
But dont the HDMI cables carry hi-res audio as well?...point is - it's not all about the picture... |
Another thing to consider is - believe it or not - we're a little behind the times in the USA when it comes to TV technology...
Some of these cables are forward compatible - and some are for specs that we dont have yet.
And - sometimes, you just want something that is well built - cables are no exception. Watch your cheap HDMI cable fall out of its socket regularly because of a poor build...
_________________
Do everything that's in you, you feel to be your part... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
