The Public Opinion Soapbox

Bobo · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 173 Location: Chambersburg

Did anyone see the article on the front page of today's PO about Pennsylvania's liquor control system? Too bad I can copy it here, but it didn't make it to the PO web site. Anyway, a friend and I were just talking the other day about Chambersburg Mall, and how one reason it just sits there is because there are no restaurants around it to drive traffic to the area. The reason, as you know - Greene is a dry township (plus I think the lack of availability of liquor licenses would be a problem even if the township weren't dry). We were saying how ridiculous the state liquor control system is and then, voila, this article appears.

My question is, when is someone going to do something and how can we get this changed? It affects all of us through a lack of choices, as Coppy says - the inability to buy a six-pack at a distributor (one rare example of the system actually forcing people to buy more alcohol than perhaps they want), the inability to attract restaurants. How can we get the legislators to stop listening to the lobbyists and do what the people want?
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.45chel · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 3043 Location: Chambersburg

My husband and I have sent letters voicing disapproval with current policies. We're also kinda ticked about not being able to have out of state wines shipped to us.
I'm sure all state pols think we're lushes at this point. (Actually, since we got lovely form letter brush-offs in return, it is their aides who think we're lushes.)
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Nevermind.

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

I have a lot to say on this topic, and PA having the dumbest beer laws in the country, some of it right here on the soapbox.

There's legislation out to amend the archaic beer laws, particularly the one about six-packs which burns the most. Well, what really burns me the most is that Pennsylvanians have gotten complacent and don't realize how, as consumers, they're the ones being tremendously inconvenienced by this.

Anyway, here's some reading on the topic.

postaff · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 120 Location: Chambersburg

The story is on the PO Web site. Here is the link:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PA_LIQUOR_CONTROL_PAOL-?SITE=PACHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

Taking on the LCB and state system seems like far too much of a stretch considering how much revenue they bring it. I'd love to see our wine & spirits privatized (and sold in grocery/convenience stores) but I just don't see it happening. If there's something I can sign, i'll sign it. But for me, it's all about baby steps.

Being allowed to buy alcohol on Sundays is a luxury we didn't have in Pennsylvania up until about 2 years ago. That's unbelievable. And they didn't change it to make more money; they changed it because people complain. Something more of us should be doing.

But my biggest problem right now is the "case law." Pennsylvania is the only state in the country that requires beer to be sold by the case ONLY from beer "distributors." Six packs can be sold at up to a 50% markup at bars/taverns but only two at a time. Plus selection is always awful.

This stifles competition and new business. Plus, a lot of microbreweries are packaging their high-quality beer in 22 oz. bottles or larger. These bottles are illegal in Pennsylvania in any quantity.

Weyerbacher, a great brewery near Philadelphia sells a lot of these beers that are complex, full-bodied and relatively high in ABV. But not in PA because the packaging is inconsistent with our puritanical rules.

This is what I'm going for, particularly as a member of the Brewer's Association's "Support Your Local Brewery" organization.

Legislation's on the table; if the case law can finally be shot down (despite significant opposition from the Tavern Association) then that would just be another step toward privatizing our alcohol.

Brian · Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Chambersburg, PA

I was surprised when I moved here 5 years ago that wine and beer are not sold in the same stores and that places like Sheetz aren't allowed to sell beer. I grew up in the Frederick/Washington County Maryland area so all of this is new to me. I feel like a criminal buying alcohol in Maryland and bringing it to my home in PA.

Also one occasion I found particularly funny is when me and my wife (I was 22, she was 20) went to have a nice dinner at Schoenberger's Restaurant and I was denied wine because my table partner (my wife) was underage. They explained had I been her parent or guardian it would be different.

PA's liquor laws are questionable to say the least.

-Brian
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Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

Questionable? More like moronic.

.45chel · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 3043 Location: Chambersburg

Cheers! Stupid beer laws falling off

By Lew Bryson

updated 2:19 p.m. ET, Sun., Feb. 10, 2008
If you don’t live in Pennsylvania, this is going to sound a little weird: When I go to the beer store (a state oddity), I have to buy at least a case of beer.

It’s not because of my terrible thirst; it’s the law. We call it the case law, and it’s been in place for more than 70 years, since shortly after the repeal of Prohibition. You can’t go to the store and buy six-packs, 12-packs, or single bottles.

We can buy six-packs at licensed premises, like bars and restaurants — if they offer the service. Not all of them do, although some people buy a bar license and sell only six-packs, an interesting end run around the law. But there’s a catch there too. You can’t buy more than two six-packs at a time — though if you step out the door, you can step back in and buy two more.

Pennsylvania’s case law is uniquely convoluted, but much of the rest of the United States suffers under similarly irrational beer laws. Mississippi has a 6 percent cap on alcohol levels in beer, even though the state allows sales of 18 percent fortified wine. Utah doesn’t allow private citizens to buy kegs; apparently, they’re considered Weapons of Mass Drunkenness. A number of states have separate licenses and stores for beer with 3.2 percent alcohol by weight and for “high-alcohol” beer.

Relief is in sight: Stupid beer laws have been falling. Florida did away with its beer-bottle law, which restricted the sale of beer in anything other than 8-, 12-, 16-, or 32-ounce bottles and cans, in 2001 — although the sale of beer in bottles larger than 32 ounces is still not allowed. Montgomery, Alabama, now allows the sale of draft beer rather than just beer in cans and bottles. South Carolina recently “popped the cap” and now allows beer with more than 6 percent alcohol by volume, though the upper limit is now 17.5 percent. Dry towns across the South are reconsidering their booze bans to draw restaurant business.

In Pennsylvania, there’s a bill in the state House that would allow six-pack sales at beer stores and allow bars to sell up to three six-packs. It’s considered a pretty safe bet for passage — Pennsylvania voters have said in polls that they want to see the end of the case law. The state’s small brewers are all for it; it makes their more expensive beers easier to sample. Even Mothers Against Drunk Driving is in favor of the change, because it lets people buy beer in smaller quantities.

Great, right? It’s great for consumers, maybe, but highly disruptive for the tavern and beer-store owners. The case law has shaped their business — down to the fact that beer stores have concrete floors and wide aisles for moving pallets of cases around, and they lack nice shelves and glass-front coolers and display units. The guys who laid out big money for bar licenses to sell six packs — they can run as high as $500,000 — may wind up expensive curiosities. As one store owner told me, “I’ve got to change my whole store to accommodate this.”

Montgomery bars are spending big bucks on keg coolers and draft lines and learning about line maintenance and cleaning glassware. South Carolina stores need a lot more shelf space for the hundreds of new beers that are now legal, and the state’s craft brewers are scrambling to learn how to brew big beers to compete with out-of-state double IPA’s and barley wines. Restaurants in formerly dry towns have to compete with chain restaurants drawn by the new opportunity.

It’s easy to brush this off as part of doing business, as a lot of beer bloggers are doing. The tavern owners in Pennsylvania have had a 72-year monopoly on six-pack sales, and we’re supposed to feel sorry for them? Beer-store owners had the luxury of never having to open up a case and stack sixers in the cooler. Hey, get to work!

That’s cold, almost a bit Stalinesque. Some of those businesspeople worked hard within the system to bring Pennsylvania a variety of beer that is second to none. The six-pack-shop guys went deep in pocket for a more expensive bar license so they could sell us the single bottles we craved. The laws were ridiculous, and I’m glad to see them disappearing. But these guys were our beer comrades, they fought the revolution with us, and now we’re going to send them into exile, saying essentially, work harder or starve.

I’d feel worse, but I suspect they’re going to land on their feet. They were, after all, the men and women who were beating the hell out of the system already. The beer-store owner I talked to was one of them. “I’ll have to put in shelves, and I maybe won’t be able to carry as many beers,” he said. “But I’ll do it.”

Faced with consumer demand and a change in the law, what else would you do? Beer is a highly regulated product, and changes in those regulations are part of the risk of business. Looking at the accelerated pace of regulatory change affecting alcoholic-beverage sales over the past 15 years — increased taxes, labeling and advertising guidelines, keg registration, and stiffer D.U.I. laws — it’s only going to get riskier.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22958512/
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Nevermind.

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

I've tired of hearing people shed tears over the Tavern Association. These laws hurt consumers and I don't think there's been a lot of research put into how much revenue is lost from people buying beer from across state lines. I do it, but it's not nearly as prevalent here as it is in Eastern PA where people can hop over to Jersey and get whatever they want.

With an impending hop shortage, beer prices are going up, particularly for the little guys. I don't want to buy a $48 case of my favorite beer anymore. I just want a six pack.

They've been dragging their feet on this for a long time now and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

.45chel · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 3043 Location: Chambersburg

Related only because it involves beer

My bud called today, back in Iraq fresh from his trip to Ireland (grumble.) and related to me that there were advertisements for and people all over drinking American beer. Shocked

Specifically, Budweiser. Shocked

I was, lyke, "No way!" and he was lyke, "No, really!"

So, he managed to take a seat at the bar in one of the numerous Irish pubs he visited (hateses him!) and there they had Budweiser on tap. Same little logo, print yada yada yada, well, not quite. Little teensy numbers at the very bottom read

Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

It's the same beer Sad

Anheuser-Busch most certainly has their "beechwood-aged" swill contract brewed all over the world. What they wouldn't do is let anything about it from taste, to look to alcohol content vary in any way. Sort of how Coke only sells the syrup to various bottlers who are the ones who actually do the mixing. It's all the same ingredients brewed using an automated brewing system.

Yeah, good ole' American Budweiser is about 5.2% ABV; even here. Europe probably has laws requiring ABV to be listed on bottles, while here its display is optional. The problem of course is America's obsession with light beer that is around 4% and that's what everyone's used to. But it all comes down to advertising and A-B is just starting to tap into the European market, which is wide open for American-style, over-carbonated, fizzy, tasteless, faux-pilsners like Bud. And they've got the dollars to do it.

Miller Brewing is actually owned by a South African company already (yep, that's right) and got a big head start on the European market, while Coors is diversifying into the craft beer market, which is another game that A-B is a little late to, but just starting to play.

Look for "Budweiser American Ale" to hit shelves in the next year to compete with your local breweries. This just after Budweiser's ad campaign stating that their "crisp, clean, refreshing" beer isn't heavy or dark like those gross microbrewed ales.

Now here's one you may not have seen:

Budweiser... Czech style beer from the city of Budweis, this version pre-dates A-B's by about 600 years, although the Czech Budweiser company predates the A-B Budweiser brand by about 80 years. The original trademark dispute stated that American Budweiser could only be sold under that name in North America, but A-B has since won trademark rights all over the world. So much for being the little guy...

We think Europeans are so much more refined than us when it comes to beer; and a lot of them are, particularly in Germany and Ireland. But when it comes right down to it, Budweiser's the most popular beer in the world and when you're the biggest brewery out there, you can sell horse urine in a bottle and people will drink it if you advertise it enough. Just look at Corona!

Still, Irish pub regulars take their beer seriously, and Guinness is still the way to go. There's a whole ritual behind it as well, specifically to wait at least 2 minutes after getting your pint to let the beer settle out. Tourists stick out like a sore thumb (especially when they order a Budweiser).

So, Budweiser is Budweiser; it may seem like it tastes better enjoyed in an authentic Irish Public House as opposed to a dive bar like Dilly's, but it's the same stuff. He's probably just used to Bud Light Smile

I love beer, so just as a disclaimer... Budweiser may be a deplorable American Macro Lager (as us beer geeks call it) but as far as that style is concerned, Budweiser is admittedly one of the better ones out there.

.45chel · Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 3043 Location: Chambersburg

He's actually more a liquor kind of guy and tends to avoid beer completely. And being in Iraq for all those months, he could have had witch hazel and it would have quenched a powerful thirst.

Poor thing...I'll break it to him as painfully as possible! Twisted Evil

I just hate calling the stupid Baghdad Embassy---for some reason I always punch in the wrong numbers...same phone I always use, but the darn numbers switch places!

This why both he and I should just stick to what we know... I couldn't have told you alcohol percentages to save my life.
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Coppy · Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Posts: 2569 Location: Chambersburg

That's why I'm here to help!

Want my recommendation? Pickup a Troeg's Mad Elf this winter; it's a strong Belgian-style, cherry-flavored ale that comes in at just over 11% ABV... and it's made right in Harrisburg!

Dragas · Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Posts: 133 Location: Waynesboro, PA

PLCB is trying to get about 100 wine kiosks installed throughout malls and near grocery stores.

http://www.dailyitem.com/panews/local_story_119060221.html