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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | | I don't label conservatives as racists... where are you getting this garbage. Crawl out of your pundit hole and join the real world. |
Please pay attention. I never said you called conservatives racists. I said you spinning Obama's different stories, and giving him a pass on his own racist statements are wrong
So take a chill pill and rereaf the posts I have made. This is about Obama's judgement and credibility |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2251
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| munchkin wrote: |
Again, the same people who attack and trash conservatives for racist remarks see nothing wrong with Obam's commenst and his nutjof pastor |
This has basically been your argument. I re-read your posts; they're clearly meant to be inflammatory and to garner more of a backlash than you are getting.
OK, so let me try to put forth what you're trying to convey. Basically, Obama admitted that he was aware his pastor was making controversial remarks and, although he disagreed with them, continue to attend his sermons with his family. This, conservatives such as yourself, point out to as a lack of judgment on Obama's part.
The comments about his grandmother that I believe you're alluding to are these:
| Barack Obama wrote: | | I can no more disown [Wright] than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. |
This is contradictory (as munchkin points out because I do not have an exact quote) to things Obama has written about his grandmother.
A couple of things I'd just like to point out... Obama had no reason to make that statement, and taken out of context it certainly seems like he "threw his grandmother under the bus" (as a right-wing blog I found quoting to the above paragraph).
But the speech, in its entirety, served another point... one about race which Obama has not made an issue out of throughout the election. And the speech was certainly one of his best. I watched the entire thing and if there's one thing I got from it, it's that Obama is most certainly not racist for not disowning his loud-mouthed pastor or his own grandmother.
I think most of us, particularly here in rural Pennsylvania, have a grandparent that probably has made a few racist remarks. That certainly doesn't make me a racist by association, and it certainly doesn't make me racist if I would choose to defend them simply because they're family.
So I don't see this, in any way as a "clear lack of judgment" on Obama's part as you're trying to point out. And I realize that this will open you up to a whole new firestorm of "facts" and "accusations" about liberals and giving Obama a free ride.
But like most Americans--moderate, hard-working Americans ready to take our country in a new direction--I just don't see the relevance in this, any more than I see the relevance in impeaching Clinton for getting a blowjob. I'm not sure what practical examples you could give me for having a double standard on this; I didn't care that Giuliani was a cross-dressing adulterer, that Larry Craig is a flaming homosexual, or that George Allen called a Native American a 'macaca.'
Obama has not said anything racist; and the judgment he makes with his faith and family are not something I would use to judge his ability as president.
No matter how much you believe it munchkin, it doesn't necessarily make it so. |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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The HUGE difference IMO is that Obama continued to go to this church. I don't know of ANY Presidential hopeful that has attended Pat Robertsons or Falwell's churches, do you?????
I did not see stunned silence or gasps of disapproval during these videos. I see people jumping and clapping in agreement. IMO Obama is lying about knowing about these sermons. I'm sorry, but you don't continue to attend a church if you disagree with the pastor, you leave. Obama's continued attendence showed his approval.
Obama then called his mother a typical white person. That is not a racist statement?
The parallel would be having someone white running for POTUS saying, "typical black people [insert action here]." We all know that this kind of statement is a blatant stereotype, yet Mr. Eloquent himself, Barack Obama, is literally shoveling s*** in his own path so that he steps in it.
Taken out of contect? The video is there for you to see, and the video came from tapes the church sells. So do not try and say Obama did not know about the statements
In all my years of following politics I've never had this much fun before. It's all coming back to bite them in the butt.
Why does the Affirmative Action go out the window at the DNC? These two candidtaes are equally qualified, have the same policies, so the job should automatically go to the black man.Hillary should step down and let the poor Ivy Leauge black man have the nomination. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Munchkin, just because the horse is dead doesn't mean that it's okay for you to beat it.
You're getting covered in splatter.
_________________
I demand euphoria! |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| .45chel wrote: | Munchkin, just because the horse is dead doesn't mean that it's okay for you to beat it.
You're getting covered in splatter. |
I will call anyone on their spins, distorations, and lectures on racist white people are
I have this problem with wanting to debate with facts and not emotions |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2251
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| munchkin wrote: | | The HUGE difference IMO is that Obama continued to go to this church. I don't know of ANY Presidential hopeful that has attended Pat Robertsons or Falwell's churches, do you????? |
Mmm, I see what you're saying, but again, I personally I don't really hold that to be as important if a candidate doesn't make religions such an important issue. I'm much more concerned that a political candidate will try to legislate based on faith-based moral values rather than common sense. Obama has been openly religious (since he's been accused of being a radical muslim and all) but he's certainly not condemning the theory of evolution... thankfully.
| Quote: | | I did not see stunned silence or gasps of disapproval during these videos. I see people jumping and clapping in agreement. IMO Obama is lying about knowing about these sermons. I'm sorry, but you don't continue to attend a church if you disagree with the pastor, you leave. Obama's continued attendence showed his approval. |
I heard an interesting commentary on this on NPR (yeah, I get my news from several sources) about how different black churches are than the traditional white churches. To me, Obama was part of a church community and has shown no indication of agreeing with these sermons as a political candidate. If he's guilty by association to you, then I can't argue with that. The point was that almost all, all-black churches have sermons like this and that it's simply a more emotional experience that includes a condemnation of a country they feel has treated them unfairly. I think Obama has expressed over and over that it's that very perception he'd like to change, and may being part of a church like that will give him the perspective he needs to do that.
| Quote: | | Obama then called his mother a typical white person. That is not a racist statement? |
Uh... no. As opposed to an a-typical white person? I consider myself a typical white person, does that make me a racist against myself?
| Quote: | | The parallel would be having someone white running for POTUS saying, "typical black people [insert action here]." We all know that this kind of statement is a blatant stereotype, yet Mr. Eloquent himself, Barack Obama, is literally shoveling s*** in his own path so that he steps in it. |
Yes, it is blatantly stereotypical when used to describe a black person. But I think many of us realize that there is a disconnect between racism and reverse-racism... that is, black racism toward whites. First of all, I don't think it's a double standard when a majority makes comments about a minority, as opposed to the opposite. Add to that the fact that the majority literally brought the minority to this country against their will and used them as slaves for hundreds of years. I realize that Obama is trying to level the playing field and that may make his remarks seem racist, but they're clearly not. I think we all see what he's trying to see by reading between the lines while you're just attacking what's on the very surface.
| Quote: | | Taken out of contect? The video is there for you to see, and the video came from tapes the church sells. So do not try and say Obama did not know about the statements |
I didn't say that Obama didn't know about the statements, he did and he admitted that. I just don't care. Why? I think it's politically irrelevant. I'm ok with you making that connection but I'm not ok with you telling me how I should think. I'm not going to to convince you that Bush is mentally challenged, but that's not going to stop me from believing it based on what I"ve seen and heard him say.
| Quote: | | In all my years of following politics I've never had this much fun before. It's all coming back to bite them in the butt. |
Are you in politics? You're not Jim Taylor, are you?
| Quote: | | Why does the Affirmative Action go out the window at the DNC? These two candidtaes are equally qualified, have the same policies, so the job should automatically go to the black man.Hillary should step down and let the poor Ivy Leauge black man have the nomination. |
Ah, ending with a real zinger I see... Affirmative Action's a tough nut to crack. While reverse-racism exists, I think that most people will agree that racism in itself is far more of a problem with whites toward blacks (that is majority toward minority) than the other way around. In fact, reversing it, comes across as a bit silly.
Now lets all listen to some rap music and be friends! |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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So to sum it up - like the supporters of Bill Clinton did -all the standards the Dems hold Reopublicans to, they are checked at the door when it comes to Obama
They are setting aside his onw words, and actions and shifting the soin cycle on turbo
I got it now Coppy. It not for Democrat double standards Dems would have no standards at all
Bo I am not in politics - I just follow it |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| munchkin wrote: |
I have this problem with wanting to debate with facts and not emotions |
Oh stop that!
This has been a lively discussion that did not deteriorate too much.
_________________
I demand euphoria! |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| .45chel wrote: | | munchkin wrote: |
I have this problem with wanting to debate with facts and not emotions |
Oh stop that!
This has been a lively discussion that did not deteriorate too much. |
From what I have seen, I am posting facts, Solid facts on the actions of Obama
What I get back is emotional posts about how rotten it is to be a black person in America. One would think we were back 200 years in time
The Obama supporters are spinning and deflecting what the issue really is. Obama's judgement and credibility |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2251
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure that sums up my position at all. I don't even consider myself a traditional democrat as there are many democrat-based policies I disagree with. I made it quite clear that I don't care about a politician's personal life, so long as it is separate from politics. Bill Clinton didn't give speeches about the evils of adultery and hypocritically break them.
For practical example, Mark Foley spoke often about saving children from sexual predators and turned out to be a bit of a sexual predator himself when he was found to send sexually explicit messages to underage congressional pages... male pages. THAT is hypocrisy.
Larry Craig spoke often about his opposition to homosexuality and gay marriage, and was caught soliciting gay sex in an airport mens room. Also hypocrisy.
George Allen literally used a racial slur when referring to a minority.
Obama has not said anything remotely racist, yet you accuse him of racism by association merely because he attended a church that worships basically the same way black churches do across the country.
Again, I didn't care that Giuliani was a cross-dressing adulterer; I just didn't care for his politics.
I'm sorry, but there are examples of double standards on BOTH SIDES. It's something that is merely a part of politics.
I think that one could argue that the standards you are holding Obama to right now are checked at the door for conservative candidates. It's a double-double-standard, and quite clearly something most American's have become immune to. |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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The bottom line is Coppy
obama has chosen two very interesting people to be close to him .The slum lord that financially launched his political career and and very paranoid mean spirited pastor,not exactly quality people.Then he chose to throw his dear white grandmother under the bus to help justify when you can love questionable people . If he truely was the moral and ethicacl pargon he and others claim he is he would can the lot of them
He has proven and admitted he has question judgement and made bad decissions. Just the qualifications we need. He should put out a campaign ad "We hope i will change"
How many votes has BO received because he is black on that fact alone?
Look at how Obama went afer Geraldine Ferraro, but he stands by a real racist - his mentor and advisor |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2251
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Wow... well, it's quite clear that you are simply ignoring what I'm saying and most certainly fooled by what you consider to be "facts."
You have single-handedly proven to me that your arguments are empty and worthless, and that any support I had for Obama previously has been strengthened... both by your unending assault and my own research into the matter which is actually painting Obama in a better light with every speech I listen to, with every transcript I read.
I only wish you could take a step back and seek out some differing opinions, but that won't happen and it's Friday night... I have better things to do.
So thank you for solidifying my choice for president. And if by some chance Obama loses to Hillary, well, I'll be just as happy. |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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You talk a great game AM. But when it comes to belly up to the bar you go belly up
You debate on pure emotion and the heck with the facts. You claim you want to debate, but when the facts become to hard to overcome you cry how I my points are arguments are empty and worthless and turn tail and run away
You would feel right at home with the drones at the Daily Kos, Dem Underground, and Huffington Post
Nearly all the posters are like you - they are immune to facts and ignore the truth |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Obama supporters say 'watch all of the sermons"
Well people are, and here are more of Rev Wright's Greatest Hits
Wright on the disappearance of Natalee Holloway: "Black women are being raped daily in Africa. One white girl from Alabama gets drunk at a graduation trip to Aruba, goes off and gives it up while in a foreign country and that stays in the news for months."
Wright on Israel: "The Israelis have illegally occupied Palestinian territories for over 40 years now. Divestment has now hit the table again as a strategy to wake the business community and wake up Americans concerning the injustice and the racism under which the Palestinians have lived because of Zionism."
Wright on America: He has used the term "middleclassness" in a derogatory manner; frequently mentions "white arrogance" and the "oppression" of African-Americans today; and has referred to "this racist United States of America."
For a February 2003 service, Wright placed a "War on Iraq IQ Test" on the Pastor's Page of the church Web site. The test consisted of a series of questions and answers that clearly portrayed America as the aggressor, and the war as unjustified and illegal. Marginally relevant issues regarding Israel received attention.
The test also portrayed the Iraqi people as victims of trade sanctions, but Saddam Hussein's propensity for using "oil for food" proceeds to build palaces rather than buy medicine was never mentioned.
At the end of the test, the pastor wrote, "Members of Trinity are asked to think about these things and be prayerful as we sift through the ‘hype' being poured on by the George Bush-controlled media." Obama's campaign staff did not respond to a NewsMax request for the senator's response to Wright's statements.
But the same experts same those same ties may come to haunt him if he were to win the nomination and face a Republican in the general election.
The worry is not lost on Wright.
"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Wright told The New York Times with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said 'yeah, that might have to happen.'"
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/8/194812.shtml |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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It seems the Obama supporters are once again ignoring another lie their guy has been caught in
Obama claims he never heard about Wrights racist sermons - yet Wrights told Obama how he would have to distance himsrlf because of his sermons
Ok Obama supporters - let the spin machine and excuses start to flow
GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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