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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 522
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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and I agree with the potential you see in Obama. I have been pretty disengaged from politics for a long time because I just see the same old manipulation and positioning and tactics from them all. He somehow seems able to transcend that. He certainly has his faults - he is a politician after all - but he has more potential than anyone I've seen on the national stage in my adult lifetime. Although I did have high hopes for Edwards.  |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2569
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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I liked Edwards too... and maybe he'll have his chance again as the Democratic running mate... but back to the whole munchkin debate:
It seems like munchkin is trying really hard to show people who believe that a politician like Obama is faultless as having faults. And I think Anonymouse pretty much summed up that, as a politician, it doesn't matter who you are what you say, faults will follow. To me, it's not so much a matter of what your faults actually are, but how you handle the accusation. And when it comes right down to it, you have to admit that Hillary Clinton is standing atop that mountain. She's been hammered, politically, from the conservative base since her campaign for NY Senator and right up until Obama started going ahead and winning delegates left and right.
What amazes me is how well Obama is handling this whole debacle, as blown out of proportion as it is, with regard to race, his preacher, and the practical examples he uses to plead his case. When it's all said and done, Sen. Clinton continues to be the absolute master of warding of rhetoric and conjecture, but Obama in his Bobby Kennedy fashion certainly made a statement in his speech in Philadelphia.
I don't know, I was pretty strong for Obama there for a while, but now that everyone's on the offensive with him and the media has stopped giving him the so-called "free pass," I have to say that Hillary is pretty admirable for fighting through all the crap that has been thrown at her for the past four years as opposed to Obama who seems to be seeing it for the first time in his candidacy.
I have to be honest, I'm torn between the two going into the PA primary at this point (once again) and realizing how much of an impact it may have, my vote may simply come down to do has the better shot at beating McCain in November. |
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AnonyMouse
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 522
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | I liked Edwards too... and maybe he'll have his chance again as the Democratic running mate... but back to the whole munchkin debate:
It seems like munchkin is trying really hard to show people who believe that a politician like Obama is faultless as having faults. And I think Anonymouse pretty much summed up that, as a politician, it doesn't matter who you are what you say, faults will follow. To me, it's not so much a matter of what your faults actually are, but how you handle the accusation. And when it comes right down to it, you have to admit that Hillary Clinton is standing atop that mountain. She's been hammered, politically, from the conservative base since her campaign for NY Senator and right up until Obama started going ahead and winning delegates left and right.
What amazes me is how well Obama is handling this whole debacle, as blown out of proportion as it is, with regard to race, his preacher, and the practical examples he uses to plead his case. When it's all said and done, Sen. Clinton continues to be the absolute master of warding of rhetoric and conjecture, but Obama in his Bobby Kennedy fashion certainly made a statement in his speech in Philadelphia.
I don't know, I was pretty strong for Obama there for a while, but now that everyone's on the offensive with him and the media has stopped giving him the so-called "free pass," I have to say that Hillary is pretty admirable for fighting through all the crap that has been thrown at her for the past four years as opposed to Obama who seems to be seeing it for the first time in his candidacy.
I have to be honest, I'm torn between the two going into the PA primary at this point (once again) and realizing how much of an impact it may have, my vote may simply come down to do has the better shot at beating McCain in November. |
I read an interesting article today at The Politico. Here's how it starts:
| Quote: | Story behind the story: The Clinton myth
One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning.
Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.
Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.
People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.
As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.
In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe.
The real question is why so many people are playing. The answer has more to do with media psychology than with practical politics. |
If you want to read the whole thing: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html
I also saw a clip of Russert on MSNBC talking about a document from the Obama campaign that got released accidentally with some other documents they meant to release. It had their internal predictions on the primary, state by state. It was amazingly accurate, hitting them all right but one so far - including Texas and Ohio. Anyway, I can't find it again, but I do remember that they have never expected to win PA but still expected to win the popular vote and the most delegates.
In any case, even though they are playing it as a horse race, I don't think our votes will count for more this year than in the past. I think Hillary will take PA but it won't ultimately make any real difference. |
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Coppy
Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 2569
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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Yep; just a few weeks ago Slate.com was reporting articles with lavish titles like "How Hillary Can Win" and "The Hillary Numbers Game."
Now those titles have shifted to "Hope Fades for Clinton" and "Why Won't Anyone Admit Hillary is Done?"
I guess this pretty much explains why there has been such a massive backlash against Obama as of late; he's the guy to beat, not the easy-target Hillary everyone assumed.
So, to the Clinton supporters out there... what do you think? Is there anyway fro Obama and Hillary to share the presidency, maybe every other month, or year even?
I know, perfect world right... or maybe not. I just hope McCain doesn't have a stroke before November 
edit: above I wrote "is there anyway fro Obama..." and I just want to point ou that it was totally a typo and that Obama doesn't need to disown me for typing it even though we were gay lovers in 1994. |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| AnonyMouse wrote: | | anonymous_coward wrote: | | AnonyMouse wrote: | | You know, I try to remain optimistic. I started that other thread based on an inspirational thing I read, but it degenerated into the same moronic thing. You guys (Coppy, Chel, Coward, Torgo) are a breath of fresh air. You are all thoughtful, informed, good-natured folks who are able to disagree civilly. Thanks for that. |
i don't know what to do sometimes when i see posts full of ignorance, or worse yet hate. i feel continuously sucked down into this arguing that gets everyone nowhere, and makes me so angry and full of despair.
this is a question much broader than just the PO or even just franklin county, but how do we move debate past anger at differing views? is it just the anonymity of the internet? has this spilled out of the internet to all dialog? how do we remind ourselves and the people who we disagree with that we all want the same things, and in person have helped or been helped by each other? i feel very very pessimistic right now, but still hold out some hope for the power of Obama to unite. |
For me, conversation never degenerates into the stupidity of internet debate when I'm talking to someone in person. Admittedly, because I value the relationships I have with my friends, I don't bring up certain issues with certain people because I know it won't go anywhere productive. I did have a good conversation with two friends a couple of weeks ago about the Obama/Muslim/black issue (we started at opposite ends) where we arrived at a satisfying place without totally agreeing.
Some of the problem I think lies in the personality of some people. Some people (our president springs to mind) are unable to admit a single mistake because they believe that acknowledging they were wrong on one issue is like admitting they are wrong. These are people with adolescent-like personalities who can't differentiate between "I was wrong on this issue" from "I always have bad judgment."
I also think that discussions by writing (email, forums, etc.) are inherently weak. There is too much room to misinterpret tone and make false assumptions. That's the value of the emoticons - we soften things that might be interpreted too harshly. Maybe emotionally charged issues like race and immigration simply can't be worked out in this medium.
I always appreciate your input A.C. You are sincere, thoughtful and balanced. You've made some excellent points with Muchkin, but he just can't hear them. |
No, you have a severe phobia to the facts AM. You refuse to try and debate and constantly try to change the subject, and try to run completely on emotion
Last edited by munchkin on Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| AnonyMouse wrote: | | Oh, and I agree with the potential you see in Obama. I have been pretty disengaged from politics for a long time because I just see the same old manipulation and positioning and tactics from them all. He somehow seems able to transcend that. He certainly has his faults - he is a politician after all - but he has more potential than anyone I've seen on the national stage in my adult lifetime. Although I did have high hopes for Edwards. |
The nerve of some to point out his different stories, his racist friends, and his racist statement about whites
What a dirty trick to pull on a second coming of the messiah
Last edited by munchkin on Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Coppy wrote: | I liked Edwards too... and maybe he'll have his chance again as the Democratic running mate... but back to the whole munchkin debate:
It seems like munchkin is trying really hard to show people who believe that a politician like Obama is faultless as having faults. And I think Anonymouse pretty much summed up that, as a politician, it doesn't matter who you are what you say, faults will follow. To me, it's not so much a matter of what your faults actually are, but how you handle the accusation. And when it comes right down to it, you have to admit that Hillary Clinton is standing atop that mountain. She's been hammered, politically, from the conservative base since her campaign for NY Senator and right up until Obama started going ahead and winning delegates left and right.
What amazes me is how well Obama is handling this whole debacle, as blown out of proportion as it is, with regard to race, his preacher, and the practical examples he uses to plead his case. When it's all said and done, Sen. Clinton continues to be the absolute master of warding of rhetoric and conjecture, but Obama in his Bobby Kennedy fashion certainly made a statement in his speech in Philadelphia.
I don't know, I was pretty strong for Obama there for a while, but now that everyone's on the offensive with him and the media has stopped giving him the so-called "free pass," I have to say that Hillary is pretty admirable for fighting through all the crap that has been thrown at her for the past four years as opposed to Obama who seems to be seeing it for the first time in his candidacy.
I have to be honest, I'm torn between the two going into the PA primary at this point (once again) and realizing how much of an impact it may have, my vote may simply come down to do has the better shot at beating McCain in November. |
John Edwards is a shameless huckster. He lectures America on poverty while working for a hedge fund, he built a 30,000 sq ft mansion, and spends more on haircuts and makeup then the average familiy spends on food and shelter. I bet he thinks about the poor as he sits by his swimming pool, ir riding in the back of his limo
I point out the facts, while AM changes the sublect and falls back on the liberal guilt trip on how Amercia is a racist country. Obama is passing the buck and has tossed grandma under the bus to deal with the issue. Like AM he is blaming whitey for his problem
You might want to stay home if you want to vote for the candidate who will beat Mccain. Obama is damaged goods, and Hilllary has more baggade then a cargo hold. Her negs are still over 50% and leads in the antivote where more people will vote against her then vote for her
You have Operation Chaos where Republicans in huge numbers are voting for Hillary to keep the war going between Obama and Hillary
Hillary is up by more then 20% and she will cut into Obama's popular vote lead and elegates. She is catching him in NC and the national vote |
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mom4
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Munchkin, I don't feel Obama is damaged goods. There are a lot of people, like me, who see through the ploy Hillary's (or was it McCain's?) campaign tried to pull off with this preacher stuff. I don't believe that for 20 years Wright focused on "hatred of the white man". Somebody took a few highly emotional moments from the preacher's life, and crammed them together to make it seem that his whole focus for the past 20 years was hatred of the white man. B.S. It truly saddens me to realize people are so gullible as to believe all this garbage.
I was truly undecided up to this point, but to see Obama stand up to this crap, and the way that he did, totally convinced me who I'd rather have leading my country. If there was any doubt as to Obama's character before this escapade, it only enlightened me to the depth of his character.
My country can't take any more of this war on the world. Let's focus on my country now. |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| mom4 wrote: | Munchkin, I don't feel Obama is damaged goods. There are a lot of people, like me, who see through the ploy Hillary's (or was it McCain's?) campaign tried to pull off with this preacher stuff. I don't believe that for 20 years Wright focused on "hatred of the white man". Somebody took a few highly emotional moments from the preacher's life, and crammed them together to make it seem that his whole focus for the past 20 years was hatred of the white man. B.S. It truly saddens me to realize people are so gullible as to believe all this garbage.
I was truly undecided up to this point, but to see Obama stand up to this crap, and the way that he did, totally convinced me who I'd rather have leading my country. If there was any doubt as to Obama's character before this escapade, it only enlightened me to the depth of his character.
My country can't take any more of this war on the world. Let's focus on my country now. |
So will you explain Obam's different stories?
Do you REALLY believe he NEVER heard the racist hate filled statements
Why blame McCain? He is running a PC campaign
The video, once again, came from a DVD the church sells |
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Diddy
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Lets face it, i'm sure Obama heard his preacher say things that he shouldn't have. But if it is about racisim, I believe morals run along the same line, so why is it we don't judge Hillary on what her husband did and how she stood by him and accepted it. She may not have liked it, but she still stayed and supported him through his "ordeal". Some would say this is condoning his actions, and for 8 years we have heard much about family values from Bush. So why isn't the "monica" an issue? Is this all really about how americans don't want a black president, and need to find a reason outside of saying" He's black he can't be president"?
Hillary is good, she has what it takes, i believe. But i have to say i think Obama has more to offer us. |
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.45chel
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 3043
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I thought this was an illegal immigrant thread. 
You're all great, really....well, actually, Munchkin, you are one ornery cuss!! But that's okay and I'm glad to see you are posting on different topics. I'd like to learn more about the non-political Munchkin.
If anyone gets some chocolate bunnies they don't want, let me know, the stores were out and I need chocolate ears!! (And Cadbury Creme eggs, the originals, not all that crazy orange creme stuff!!)
_________________
Nevermind. |
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mom4
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 33
Location: Chambersburg
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: |
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OK, back to the illegal immigration thought...........yes, it is a problem all over the country. Six of my sisters live in different states across the country, and it is something we talk about. It is a very big problem everywhere. There is nothing wrong with immigration, it's the illegal immigration that is the problem. I just wish the PO would quit deleting all the comments. I'd like to know others thoughts about the problem, and any solutions anyone can suggest.
I suggest no more anchor babies; that's where I'd start.
BTW, munchkin....I never heard the priest telling me all my life that it was a sin to get my tubes tied. Golly, if I'd have heard that I'd have 50+ babies by now.  Ouch! |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Diddy wrote: | Lets face it, i'm sure Obama heard his preacher say things that he shouldn't have. But if it is about racisim, I believe morals run along the same line, so why is it we don't judge Hillary on what her husband did and how she stood by him and accepted it. She may not have liked it, but she still stayed and supported him through his "ordeal". Some would say this is condoning his actions, and for 8 years we have heard much about family values from Bush. So why isn't the "monica" an issue? Is this all really about how americans don't want a black president, and need to find a reason outside of saying" He's black he can't be president"?
Hillary is good, she has what it takes, i believe. But i have to say i think Obama has more to offer us. |
Yea Obama is offering us alot. Racist mentors, hate filled sermons, multiple lies about what happened, spin doctors defending his lies, and supporters ignoring the facts
Rewind to Bill Clinton back in 1992 |
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munchkin
Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| mom4 wrote: | OK, back to the illegal immigration thought...........yes, it is a problem all over the country. Six of my sisters live in different states across the country, and it is something we talk about. It is a very big problem everywhere. There is nothing wrong with immigration, it's the illegal immigration that is the problem. I just wish the PO would quit deleting all the comments. I'd like to know others thoughts about the problem, and any solutions anyone can suggest.
I suggest no more anchor babies; that's where I'd start.
BTW, munchkin....I never heard the priest telling me all my life that it was a sin to get my tubes tied. Golly, if I'd have heard that I'd have 50+ babies by now. Ouch! |
Maybe the PO has illegals working in the press room and as mods on the board |
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Diddy
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| munchkin wrote: | | Diddy wrote: | Lets face it, i'm sure Obama heard his preacher say things that he shouldn't have. But if it is about racisim, I believe morals run along the same line, so why is it we don't judge Hillary on what her husband did and how she stood by him and accepted it. She may not have liked it, but she still stayed and supported him through his "ordeal". Some would say this is condoning his actions, and for 8 years we have heard much about family values from Bush. So why isn't the "monica" an issue? Is this all really about how americans don't want a black president, and need to find a reason outside of saying" He's black he can't be president"?
Hillary is good, she has what it takes, i believe. But i have to say i think Obama has more to offer us. |
Yea Obama is offering us alot. Racist mentors, hate filled sermons, multiple lies about what happened, spin doctors defending his lies, and supporters ignoring the facts
Rewind to Bill Clinton back in 1992 |
munch, i wonder what your preacher has said  |
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